Caltrops and the Battle of Celduin Crossing

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HunterGreen
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Re: Caltrops and the Battle of Celduin Crossing

Post by HunterGreen » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:33 am

One could also make a case that this is covered by the rules right now as a means of making the enemy "moderately hindered" -- that is, it's a portable way to create "difficult terrain" -- giving a TN +2 to the enemy when they're attacking, and a TN -2 when they're defending.
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Rich H
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Re: Caltrops and the Battle of Celduin Crossing

Post by Rich H » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:42 am

HunterGreen wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:33 am
One could also make a case that this is covered by the rules right now as a means of making the enemy "moderately hindered" -- that is, it's a portable way to create "difficult terrain" -- giving a TN +2 to the enemy when they're attacking, and a TN -2 when they're defending.
Yep, absolutely. Another excellent option that the rules already cover.
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Falenthal
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Re: Caltrops and the Battle of Celduin Crossing

Post by Falenthal » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:51 am

Rich H wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:22 am
Mytholder wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:04 pm
Indur Dawndeath wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:03 pm
I would use the mechanics already in play.
Seconded. I'd be really hesitant to add new mechanics when you can just treat them as Battle dice and resolve everything through description.
That's how I'd roll too (deliberate pun, thanks). I give my players extra bonus dice during a battle when they come up with particularly innovative ideas for a battle as well as those gained as part of their Preliminary Rolls. It's a really elegant way of doing things that the system already accommodates beautifully.
I also do this most of the time, and I did that with all ideas my players came up during the Battle of Celduin.
But I understood from the OP that he wanted to make the caltrops invention something more unique and special, that could introduce some variation in the battle situation.

Both the bonus die and the Moderately Hindered options are very good ones from the rules, but might feel too simplistic for the players and LM alike in this situation. That's how I understood the OP, at least. I'm sure Celebril already read the way the adventure tells the LM to handle the preparations for the battle, and if he asked here is probably because that wasn't what he wanted for his group in this particular case.

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Rich H
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Re: Caltrops and the Battle of Celduin Crossing

Post by Rich H » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:15 am

Falenthal wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:51 am
I also do this most of the time, and I did that with all ideas my players came up during the Battle of Celduin.
But I understood from the OP that he wanted to make the caltrops invention something more unique and special, that could introduce some variation in the battle situation.
Yeah, I get that. I just think that approach has the potential for beginning a trend where mundane equipment becomes more important than it should be (in TOR).
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Jon Hodgson
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Re: Caltrops and the Battle of Celduin Crossing

Post by Jon Hodgson » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:53 pm

Only a semi-serious suggestion, but could it be the case that Orcs+caltrops = very angry Orcs? They are slowed down, but by the time they get to you they are a worse foe?

Would we say that invention of war machines like caltrops - the land mines of their day - is Orc-work? And thematically could/should be rewarded as such?
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Halbarad
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Re: Caltrops and the Battle of Celduin Crossing

Post by Halbarad » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:48 pm

Ooof....are you suggesting the potential for Shadow Points for the inventor.?😈

My own 'online' Fellowship are just starting Crossings of Celduin. I think I'm going to go with Increasing the number of Opening Volleys and the +2/-2 Moderately Hindered modifiers.

However, I'm not going to have my characters invent them. Nope, I'll have them as part of the standard defensive arsenal used by the folk of Celduin Village against mounted raiders out of Rhûn.

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Terisonen
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Re: Caltrops and the Battle of Celduin Crossing

Post by Terisonen » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:53 pm

When characters have an idea, it's always a mess to decide if it's meta-game or characters really have the capabilities to invent something.

I, personally, do not allow Player Characters to invent something in play. They are not that smart, otherwise they would do something else than adventuring :D
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Re: Caltrops and the Battle of Celduin Crossing

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:04 pm

Terisonen wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:53 pm
When characters have an idea, it's always a mess to decide if it's meta-game or characters really have the capabilities to invent something.

I, personally, do not allow Player Characters to invent something in play. They are not that smart, otherwise they would do something else than adventuring :D
On the other hand, the caltrop is not a difficult concept as inventions go, nor particularly hard to make--though I suspect that someone else would have probably conceived of the idea first (even though caltrops are never brought up in the legendarium). As Jon Hodgson suggested, they might even be an invention of the Orcs and their use might possibly incur Shadow points.
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Rich H
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Re: Caltrops and the Battle of Celduin Crossing

Post by Rich H » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:30 pm

Jon Hodgson wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:53 pm
Only a semi-serious suggestion, but could it be the case that Orcs+caltrops = very angry Orcs? They are slowed down, but by the time they get to you they are a worse foe?
Love it; double the Hate of each Orc due to p*ssing them off! :D
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Re: Caltrops and the Battle of Celduin Crossing

Post by zedturtle » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:29 pm

I wonder, I guess it's all in what you think 'iron-shod' means... wearing armor? Or with metal footwear of some kind? I'll confess that when I was but a little Zed (and lots of media portrayed orcs as very pig-like) that I took it to mean than they had iron shoes on their cloven feet, much like horses did.

I think deploying caltrops, especially at night, might be a Misdeed. I'd probably be stricter if it was a Mannish foe, but in theory we're supposed to show mercy to orcs even if they wouldn't give it to us.
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