So! What's going on with TOR?

Adventure in the world of J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings. Learn more at our website: http://www.cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/the-one-ring/
Glorelendil
Posts: 4804
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:20 pm

Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Glorelendil » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:04 am

I always find the speculation frustrating because I want all of those supplements. Gondor, of course, must be coming sooner rather than later. A Lorien sourcebook would be wonderful. Moria is another inevitability, but I'd like also to see a supplement focused entirely on the Misty Mountains, end to end. The Shire, including some starter adventures. Forochel would be interesting, and of course I'd buy it, but I'd be surprised if it appeared in the next dozen titles. Mordor...I don't even know what that would look like as a playable supplement (definitely not a campaign to destroy enemy supply lines and starve Sauron's armies)...but I know C7 would surprise and delight me.

And, it goes without saying (but I'm going to say it anyway)...Woses as playable culture.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator

Otaku-sempai
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 2:45 am
Location: Lackawanna, NY

Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:25 am

Glorelendil wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:04 am
Forochel would be interesting, and of course I'd buy it, but I'd be surprised if it appeared in the next dozen titles.

And, it goes without saying (but I'm going to say it anyway)...Woses as playable culture.
The Ice Bay of Forochel might be included in whatever sourcebook provides details on the Blue Mountains, though I don't expect to see the Lossoth introduced as a Heroic Culture. I don't think we need a book devoted specifically to the Misty Mountains; they've been covered pretty thoroughly in the existing sourcebooks.

I have done a lot of groundwork for using the Woses as a playable culture for AME. I have not tried to convert that for TOR, though I think that poster Blubbo Baggins may have already developed a home-brewed version of the Drúedain.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Glorelendil
Posts: 4804
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:20 pm

Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Glorelendil » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:36 am

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:25 am
The Ice Bay of Forochel might be included in whatever sourcebook provides details on the Blue Mountains,
Oh, sure, I could see Forochel getting a page or two of another supplement.

And there's still a lot of material to mine in the Misty Mountains?

(See what I did thar?)
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator

Stormcrow
Posts: 1242
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 2:56 pm
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Contact:

Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Stormcrow » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:20 pm

Cleggster wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:55 pm
It just says "like wings". So that could be interpreted a lot of ways, even though Tolkien said he hated metaphors.
Tolkien didn't say he hated metaphors; he said he hated allegories. And he only meant those allegories that twist a good story just so the author can beat his audience over the heads with it. He himself wrote allegory; Leaf by Niggle is the most prominent example, being one huge allegory for the journey through life, death, purgatory, and heaven.

"Wings" are mentioned twice in the Balrog passage. The first time, "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." This is a simile. The second time, "its wings were spread from wall to wall." This is a metaphor.
And I LOVE the idea of the "wings" just being things of fire wrapped shadow. What an image, thanks for that.
The "wings" of shadow remain, even after "the fire in it seemed to die."

Glorelendil
Posts: 4804
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:20 pm

Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Glorelendil » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:57 pm

Stormcrow wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:20 pm
"Wings" are mentioned twice in the Balrog passage. The first time, "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." This is a simile.
Wait...how does actual, everyday shadow fall in two directions?
The second time, "its wings were spread from wall to wall." This is a metaphor.
Proof?

It certainly could be a metaphor.

Just like I could be joking if I asked the Russians to hack C7 servers so I could find out what the upcoming titles are.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator

Otaku-sempai
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 2:45 am
Location: Lackawanna, NY

Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:01 pm

Glorelendil wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:36 am
And there's still a lot of material to mine in the Misty Mountains?

(See what I did thar?)
Yes, I certainly did [throws popcorn]! However, I think that material could be covered in an adventure supplement and that a region guide devoted to the Misty Mountains would feel redundant.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Otaku-sempai
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 2:45 am
Location: Lackawanna, NY

Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:06 pm

Glorelendil wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:57 pm
Wait...how does actual, everyday shadow fall in two directions?
EDIT: Sorry! I meant to have a response here and forgot to include it. Why would you expect the shadow 'construct' of the Balrog to behave like natural shadow?
The second time, "its wings were spread from wall to wall." This is a metaphor.
Proof?

It certainly could be a metaphor.
The image reinforces the previous simile. That is sounder reasoning than supposing that previously wing-like shadow transformed into enormous, physical, flesh-and-bone wings.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Glorelendil
Posts: 4804
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:20 pm

Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Glorelendil » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:56 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:06 pm

The image reinforces the previous simile.
Ok...can you find another example where Tolkien reinforces a simile with a metaphor? (Maybe you can; I'd be genuinely interested to learn that this is a technique he uses.)
That is sounder reasoning than supposing that previously wing-like shadow transformed into enormous, physical, flesh-and-bone wings.
No, I'm sorry, but it is not sounder reasoning. It is your preferred interpretation. And it is totally valid. But not exclusively so.

I'm still waiting for an explanation (a schematic would be great) showing how his shadow goes in two directions. I suppose if he had a very bright light source close to his chest that would work. Then it would be one big shadow, but to an observer from the front it might look like two. Was Gandalf (with his illuminated staff) closer than I have been assuming?

Or maybe it was wide-angle spotlights on either side, angled upward, so that each illuminated the area behind the other. Is that it? Was there theater stage lighting in Moria?

EDIT: Sorry if I'm getting increasingly snarky but this whole "there is only one correct way to interpret this" is just obnoxious. I'm totally open to arguments about why wingless is cooler and better (which really should be the only criterion), but parsing the language for an incontrovertibly correct answer is both quixotic and, when wrapped in language of certitude (like shadowy wings?), disrespectful of opposing opinions.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator

Otaku-sempai
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 2:45 am
Location: Lackawanna, NY

Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:59 pm

Glorelendil wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:56 pm
Ok...can you find another example where Tolkien reinforces a simile with a metaphor? (Maybe you can; I'd be genuinely interested to learn that this is a technique he uses.)
I don't need to; the example stands on its own merits.
That is sounder reasoning than supposing that previously wing-like shadow transformed into enormous, physical, flesh-and-bone wings.
No, I'm sorry, but it is not sounder reasoning. It is your preferred interpretation. And it is totally valid. But not exclusively so.
That is your opinion, but I strongly disagree.
I'm still waiting for an explanation (a schematic would be great) showing how his shadow goes in two directions. I suppose if he had a very bright light source close to his chest that would work. Then it would be one big shadow, but to an observer from the front it might look like two. Was Gandalf (with his illuminated staff) closer than I have been assuming?

Or maybe it was wide-angle spotlights on either side, angled upward, so that each illuminated the area behind the other. Is that it? Was there theater stage lighting in Moria?
Why would you assume that the shadow-form generated by the Balrog would act like natural shadow? I certainly don't. I am sorry that I neglected to respond to this question in the previous post. I meant to and forgot!
EDIT: Sorry if I'm getting increasingly snarky but this whole "there is only one correct way to interpret this" is just obnoxious. I'm totally open to arguments about why wingless is cooler and better (which really should be the only criterion), but parsing the language for an incontrovertibly correct answer is both quixotic and, when wrapped in language of certitude (like shadowy wings?), disrespectful of opposing opinions.
It's quite alright. I, for one, am not trying to advocate for one, single interpretation here. I am just defending my own reading.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

User avatar
Rich H
Posts: 3738
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 8:19 pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Rich H » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:10 pm

Can we remember that this is a thread started by Jon to communicate that TOR is still much loved and there's loads going on regarding it so not to worry? I mean, do we really need to disect each other posts with regard to whether a Balrog has real wings, imagined, shadowed, or none at all?

He obviously has a big cloak that he spreads to glide around on, and cast eerie shadows, a la Batman.
TOR resources thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62
TOR miniatures thread: viewtopic.php?t=885

Fellowship of the Free Tale of Years: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8318

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 13 guests