So! What's going on with TOR?

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Glorelendil
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Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Glorelendil » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:08 pm

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:27 am
I read the books before any animated or live-action movie was made, before I went looking for artwork based on the books, and before I discovered any version of D&D, and in my mind the wings were always real, or at least visible, if only made of smoke or flames.
I think this is important for everybody to acknowledge. It's fun to debate this topic. What's not ok is to dismiss everybody in the Wings faction as being influenced by Peter Jackson. Because let's be honest: for serious Tolkien fans that's a denigration, and used as a rhetorical technique to delegitimize. I, too, read the books loooong before I saw any movies or even artwork, and always imagined wings. The debates here have shifted my preference to wings of shadow and flame (that he/it can either wrap around himself or spread wide*), and I'm grateful for the scholarship and ideas that have led me to think more deeply about it than I did when I was 14. But what I don't appreciate is being labeled a 2nd class Tolkien fan for not having the "correct" interpretation.

*In fact, when we get to mechanics for a Balrog I propose that Balrogs can either wrap themselves in shadow and flame and achieve one effect, or unfurl their "wings" and achieve another effect.
Last edited by Glorelendil on Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cleggster
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Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Cleggster » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:55 pm

So I was going to comment on the thing-with-the-wing, but the top two post beat me to it and said all that I wanted to say. Yeah, I always thought yon beastie had wings until I reread the book decades later. It just says "like wings". So that could be interpreted a lot of ways, even though Tolkien said he hated metaphors. And I LOVE the idea of the "wings" just being things of fire wrapped shadow. What an image, thanks for that.

Personally I am glad they did the giant monster idea for the movie. While I would have loved to see the shadow beast on screen, that's the kind of thing that would be tricky to do right. I prefer a classic stompy monster done right than something more artistic done wrong. Though if done right, hoooo boy.

As for waiting for the good stuff, all the best thing come to those who wait. And as a Star Citizen backer I have learned the value of patience. Maybe it's just the Zen in me talking, but I will happily wait for something better then something rushed out and less for it. Bring on the Shire. :P

Otaku-sempai
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Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:01 pm

I never meant to imply that Bakshi and Jackson were solely responsible for the notion of physical Balrog wings, but they certainly cemented the idea in the minds of many of the viewers of their films. I favor the idea of wing-like creations of shadow and smoke for the Balrog of Moria based on Tolkien's description, not wings of flesh and bone.

Every time I think the Balrog-wings discussion as petered out, I'm proven wrong!
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Earendil
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Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Earendil » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:03 pm

Glorelendil wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:08 pm
What's not ok is to dismiss everybody in the Wings faction as being influenced by Peter Jackson. Because let's be honest: for serious Tolkien fans that's a denigration, and used as a rhetorical technique to delegitimize.
But what I don't appreciate is being labeled a 2nd class Tolkien fan for not having the "correct" interpretation.
I hope you don't think that's what I was doing, because it's not even close.

I made no comment at all about whether I think Balrogs have wings, and I certainly didn't suggest that people who think they do are "second class Tolkien fans", or even that they're necessarily influenced by the movies.

All I'm saying is that people who come to the book now will already have the images from the movies in their heads, so that they will probably not even think about the possibility that Tolkien may have meant metaphorical wings rather than literal ones. But of course the book is vague and open to interpretation on this point, or the debate wouldn't exist in the first place!
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Terisonen
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Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Terisonen » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:39 pm

May be Durin's Bane can have wings... If he decide so.


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Majestic
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Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Majestic » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:38 pm

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:27 am
And elves have pointy ears, but no more pointy that Spock's ears from the original Star Trek. :)
I think there's no debating that the Vulcans are space Elves! :lol:
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Majestic
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Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Majestic » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:41 pm

It seems to me that the Balrog/wings discussion is to Tolkien nerds what a laser pointer is to cats. ;)
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Cleggster
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Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Cleggster » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:06 am

It seems to me that the Balrog/wings discussion is to Tolkien nerds what a laser pointer is to cats.
Correct.

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SurrenderMonkey
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Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by SurrenderMonkey » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:44 am

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:10 pm
A "new hefty region guide"? That almost has to be for Gondor, though I wouldn't mind at all if it covered Western Eriador (including the Shire?), Ered Luin, Lindon and the Gulf of Lune. Besides the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, I could see the Elves of the Grey Havens as an Advanced Culture. Mordor might be a distant third possibility, although it doesn't seem to offer much potential for Heroic Cultures.
A Gondor book would be cool, but I think a Moria/Lorien region guide that would cover the Misty Mountains in some more detail as well would plug a more nagging hole. Either seems possible if we are extrapolating from the Adventurer's Companion, although I suppose the word "hefty" does rather imply Gondor.

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Re: So! What's going on with TOR?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:02 am

SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:44 am
A Gondor book would be cool, but I think a Moria/Lorien region guide that would cover the Misty Mountains in some more detail as well would plug a more nagging hole. Either seems possible if we are extrapolating from the Adventurer's Companion, although I suppose the word "hefty" does rather imply Gondor.
I suspect that a Lórien sourcebook would be formatted like the book for Bree, covering the region and including several adventures set in and around it. But you're right that we should be expecting one not too far down the line!
DR. MANHATTAN: I'm leaving this galaxy for one less complicated.
OZYMANDIAS: But you'd regained interest in human life...
DR. MANHATTAN: Yes, I have. I think perhaps I'll create some. Goodbye, Adrian.

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