A Gondor book?

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Glorelendil
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Glorelendil » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:07 am

By this argument, wouldn't Saruman have artillery?
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:15 am

Glorelendil wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:07 am
By this argument, wouldn't Saruman have artillery?
'Could have' and 'should have' are not the same thing. However, Saruman did at the least have some form of explosive, a "blasting fire"; in terms of Middle-earth he would have been considered to be skilled in alchemy. It might have been from Saruman that Gandalf obtained knowledge of fireworks. Given a little more time and the White Wizard would have possibly weaponized explosive rockets. ;)
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Glorelendil
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Glorelendil » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:50 am

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:15 am
Glorelendil wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:07 am
By this argument, wouldn't Saruman have artillery?
'Could have' and 'should have' are not the same thing. However, Saruman did at the least have some form of explosive, a "blasting fire"; in terms of Middle-earth he would have been considered to be skilled in alchemy. It might have been from Saruman that Gandalf obtained knowledge of fireworks. Given a little more time and the White Wizard would have possibly weaponized explosive rockets. ;)
I was sorta asking the question to point out that looking at "technologies" available in Middle-earth and then using historical precedent...specifically in Europe...to determine what else would have been developed doesn't necessarily lead to anything we want narratively.

But I guess this is really just circling around to the Realism debate, and some of us just take a different position on the whole thing.
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Enevhar Aldarion
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Enevhar Aldarion » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:36 am

Glorelendil wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:50 am
Otaku-sempai wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:15 am
Glorelendil wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:07 am
By this argument, wouldn't Saruman have artillery?
'Could have' and 'should have' are not the same thing. However, Saruman did at the least have some form of explosive, a "blasting fire"; in terms of Middle-earth he would have been considered to be skilled in alchemy. It might have been from Saruman that Gandalf obtained knowledge of fireworks. Given a little more time and the White Wizard would have possibly weaponized explosive rockets. ;)
I was sorta asking the question to point out that looking at "technologies" available in Middle-earth and then using historical precedent...specifically in Europe...to determine what else would have been developed doesn't necessarily lead to anything we want narratively.

But I guess this is really just circling around to the Realism debate, and some of us just take a different position on the whole thing.
If the War had dragged on for a few more years, Tolkien could have given Saruman some sort of primitive cannon or other artillery, seeing as how he had just invented blasting powder and a bomb/giant grenade for the attack on Helm's Deep. Or could you imagine the trebuchets and such used in the siege of Minas Tirith hurling bombs instead of just rocks?

Glorelendil
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Glorelendil » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:40 am

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:36 am
Glorelendil wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:50 am
Otaku-sempai wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:15 am


'Could have' and 'should have' are not the same thing. However, Saruman did at the least have some form of explosive, a "blasting fire"; in terms of Middle-earth he would have been considered to be skilled in alchemy. It might have been from Saruman that Gandalf obtained knowledge of fireworks. Given a little more time and the White Wizard would have possibly weaponized explosive rockets. ;)
I was sorta asking the question to point out that looking at "technologies" available in Middle-earth and then using historical precedent...specifically in Europe...to determine what else would have been developed doesn't necessarily lead to anything we want narratively.

But I guess this is really just circling around to the Realism debate, and some of us just take a different position on the whole thing.
If the War had dragged on for a few more years, Tolkien could have given Saruman some sort of primitive cannon or other artillery, seeing as how he had just invented blasting powder and a bomb/giant grenade for the attack on Helm's Deep. Or could you imagine the trebuchets and such used in the siege of Minas Tirith hurling bombs instead of just rocks?
Sure, I can imagine it. I don't have to like it.
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:59 am

Glorelendil wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:50 am
I was sorta asking the question to point out that looking at "technologies" available in Middle-earth and then using historical precedent...specifically in Europe...to determine what else would have been developed doesn't necessarily lead to anything we want narratively.
That's okay; I'm not quite sure why you replied to me in the first place though, when it was feld, not me, who was arguing strongly in favor of plate armor. Or were you actually responding to an earlier post that I've forgotten about?
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Enevhar Aldarion
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Enevhar Aldarion » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:44 am

Glorelendil wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:40 am
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:36 am
Glorelendil wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:50 am


I was sorta asking the question to point out that looking at "technologies" available in Middle-earth and then using historical precedent...specifically in Europe...to determine what else would have been developed doesn't necessarily lead to anything we want narratively.

But I guess this is really just circling around to the Realism debate, and some of us just take a different position on the whole thing.
If the War had dragged on for a few more years, Tolkien could have given Saruman some sort of primitive cannon or other artillery, seeing as how he had just invented blasting powder and a bomb/giant grenade for the attack on Helm's Deep. Or could you imagine the trebuchets and such used in the siege of Minas Tirith hurling bombs instead of just rocks?
Sure, I can imagine it. I don't have to like it.
I understand what you mean. I am a huge fan of the Chronicles of Amber books and I liked how once you got enough realities away from Earth reality, that guns and gunpowder no longer worked.

Glorelendil
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Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:20 pm

Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Glorelendil » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:16 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:59 am
That's okay; I'm not quite sure why you replied to me in the first place though, when it was feld, not me, who was arguing strongly in favor of plate armor. Or were you actually responding to an earlier post that I've forgotten about?
It was a response to feld. I just didn't actually press the 'Quote' button.
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:13 pm

Glorelendil wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:16 pm
It was a response to feld. I just didn't actually press the 'Quote' button.
Ah, that clarifies the matter. The only reason I responded was that I thought you were replying to my post. :|
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

feld
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by feld » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:20 pm

Glorelendil wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:07 am
By this argument, wouldn't Saruman have artillery?
No. Not at all. The level of metallurgical skill required to make single relatively flat plates of metal to resist striking pressure from melee weapons is a different order of magnitude of difficulty than the ability to make closed cylindrical barrels and chambers that can survive internal explosions. I am assuming that metallurgy doesn't work THAT differently in ME as its author is on record in a number of places saying that it is our Primary World but at an earlier point in time.

In any case the whole thing puts me in mind of your other post on "Realism vs..." in Middle Earth. It's making
me think that a more fertile continuum might be "simulation vs storytelling" (i.e. "well...what if magic really existed, how would that work?" vs. "It would be totally cool if the Ring made Bilbo invisible - who cares how it works? I don't need to explain that..."). I think both approaches are demonstrable in the setting.

v/r
feld

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