A Gondor book?

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Turin
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Turin » Tue May 23, 2017 10:43 pm

I would say the dwarves have way beyond Middle Ages smelting and metal working technologies, but I wouldn't really base it on the our standard technology levels as we had Bronze Age breast plates.


The only reference that I can think of other then the vambrace is the the haradarim, who dies in the two towers by Faramire's men, has over lapping plates as armor.

If that doesn't work then I would like to purchase a chest vambrace! ;)

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zedturtle
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by zedturtle » Tue May 23, 2017 11:46 pm

Thorin and companions are said to have shining armour, but its exact form is not given.

The Southron wears a 'corselet of overlapping brazen plates'.

Imrahil and his knights are wearing 'full harness' as already alluded to, and bearing 'gilded banners'.

— • —

I would not say that there is definitive proof that plate armour as we commonly understand it is clearly attested to. I would say that if someone wanted to have a special reward... an heirloom of great value and special significance... that it could be conceivable that such a unique thing exists. After all, Hobbits have umbrellas and handkerchiefs, and clocks that fit on mantles. :)
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Turin
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Turin » Wed May 24, 2017 12:07 am

zedturtle wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 11:46 pm
Thorin and companions are said to have shining armour, but its exact form is not given.

The Southron wears a 'corselet of overlapping brazen plates'.

Imrahil and his knights are wearing 'full harness' as already alluded to, and bearing 'gilded banners'.

So there we go we don't call it plate, it is just full harness, with arm vambrace and steel chest armor... perhaps leg vambrace also? :twisted:

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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Stormcrow » Wed May 24, 2017 1:14 am

Let's also not forget that Tolkien wasn't a scholar of ancient warfare. We mustn't take the lessons of history too much to heart when understanding the arms and armor of Middle-earth.

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Falenthal
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Falenthal » Wed May 24, 2017 5:10 am

zedturtle wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 11:46 pm
I would not say that there is definitive proof that plate armour as we commonly understand it is clearly attested to. I would say that if someone wanted to have a special reward... an heirloom of great value and special significance... that it could be conceivable that such a unique thing exists. After all, Hobbits have umbrellas and handkerchiefs, and clocks that fit on mantles. :)
That's how I would introduce plate armour in the game (if introduced it must): a Reward for the Knight of Dol Amroth Heroic Culture -which could be a variant of the Men of Minas Tirith-. And I'd call it "Polished Full Harness" or the like, not directly "Plate Armour". Just to get some laughter reading through the comments in the forums. :mrgreen:

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Falenthal
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Falenthal » Wed May 24, 2017 5:12 am

Indur Dawndeath wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 9:29 am
Incl. Mass combat, Naval battle rules,
That, specially Mass Combat rules, I think would go well in a Gondor-to-Umbar book.

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Tolwen
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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Tolwen » Wed May 24, 2017 5:18 am

Stormcrow wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 1:14 am
Let's also not forget that Tolkien wasn't a scholar of ancient warfare. We mustn't take the lessons of history too much to heart when understanding the arms and armor of Middle-earth.
I wouldn't go that far. At first his historical models lay in the early (or at latest - high) medieval era rather than late with classic plate armour (e.g. 14cth century onwards). And given plate armour's abundance in english museums and castles, it is quite unlikely that its connotations were unknown to Tolkien.
OTOH, the textual evidence is IMO quite highlighting. There are some instances like the already quoted that are somewhat ambiguous and can be interpreted either way (due to lack of further detail mentioned). Tolkien does refer to specific body armour on several occasions though (for Dwarves, Elves and various Men). And on these occasions it's mostly "coats of mail" or something similar that is mentioned. Even though these occasions are not so rare, there is never any word of body armour resembling plate (beside this single vambrace).

Thus - IMO - isolated ambiguous passages referring to armour are insufficient evidence to the matter. You have to gather all the relevant passages and from this whole body of evidence seen in context draw the most likely conclusions. For example, Thorin & Co are said to have rushed out to the Battle of Five Armies in "shining armour" (as mentioned in a previous post) and this *might* be seen as plate armour. Earlier in the text, when Bilbo enters Smaug's chamber, the room is described and its walls are adorned by (beside other weaponry) "coats of mail" (but no word of "plate" or something to that effect). Thus it is more likely that the armour in this room is typical and representative of what Thorin & Co later wore as well.

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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Turin » Wed May 24, 2017 7:37 am

Tolwen wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 5:18 am
Even though these occasions are not so rare, there is never any word of body armour resembling plate (beside this single vambrace). {/quote]
That and the overlapping plates that the Haradrim warrior wore when he was killed in the two towers.

Tolwen wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 5:18 am
Thus - IMO - isolated ambiguous passages referring to armour are insufficient evidence to the matter. You have to gather all the relevant passages and from this whole body of evidence seen in context draw the most likely conclusions. For example, Thorin & Co are said to have rushed out to the Battle of Five Armies in "shining armour" (as mentioned in a previous post) and this *might* be seen as plate armour. Earlier in the text, when Bilbo enters Smaug's chamber, the room is described and its walls are adorned by (beside other weaponry) "coats of mail" (but no word of "plate" or something to that effect). Thus it is more likely that the armour in this room is typical and representative of what Thorin & Co later wore as well.
Mail can indeed shine.

Now the flip side of that is what makes Prince Imrahil's armor different that instead of calling it a coat of mail, like all the previous examples, it is described as full harness?

I personally don't see Tolkien having real plate in middle earth, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be.

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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Stormcrow » Wed May 24, 2017 9:43 am

Tolwen wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 5:18 am
Stormcrow wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 1:14 am
Let's also not forget that Tolkien wasn't a scholar of ancient warfare. We mustn't take the lessons of history too much to heart when understanding the arms and armor of Middle-earth.
I wouldn't go that far. At first his historical models lay in the early (or at latest - high) medieval era rather than late with classic plate armour (e.g. 14cth century onwards). And given plate armour's abundance in english museums and castles, it is quite unlikely that its connotations were unknown to Tolkien.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying Tolkien was wholly ignorant of armor, I'm saying he hadn't made a study of it and wasn't trying to get it historically accurate. He freely mixed all sorts of elements together to create his stories: Victorian-technology hobbits, Norse Edda dwarves, Anglo-Saxon Rohirrim, Romanesque Numenoreans, elves who created weapons and armor before they had any practical use for them. It's all a mishmash. Whatever served the story he was telling got thrown in.

Middle-earth is not the Middle Ages. It's its own time, where the rules of real history do not apply.

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Re: A Gondor book?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Wed May 24, 2017 2:18 pm

Turin wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 7:37 am
Tolwen wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 5:18 am
Even though these occasions are not so rare, there is never any word of body armour resembling plate (beside this single vambrace).
That and the overlapping plates that the Haradrim warrior wore when he was killed in the two towers.
A "corslet of overlapping brazen plates" sounds more like a form of bronze scale mail or lamellar armour than anything else. In any case, not the half-plate or full-plate of medieval romances (which would possibly not have been practical for a warrior fighting from the back of an Oliphaunt).

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Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Wed May 24, 2017 4:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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