Clarification re Standing Upkeep

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Indur Dawndeath
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Re: Clarification re Standing Upkeep

Post by Indur Dawndeath » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:28 pm

Arthur Fisher wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:20 pm
I've had relatives who missed Christmas because they were in the military overseas.
None of us thought less of them because of it.
I bet they sent back some treasure.
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Re: Clarification re Standing Upkeep

Post by doctheweasel » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:16 am

Arthur Fisher wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:20 pm
I've had relatives who missed Christmas because they were in the military overseas.
None of us thought less of them because of it.
I think the disconnect is that the default assumption is that "adventuring" is generally seen as less than a less than savory pastime (definitely not something you would be called a hero for doing).

You could adjust it for certain cultures (I'm sure the people of Laketown and Dale see enough people come and go), but certain other cultures would very much see a PC's actions as abandoning their community.

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Re: Clarification re Standing Upkeep

Post by Otaku-sempai » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:57 am

doctheweasel wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:16 am
I think the disconnect is that the default assumption is that "adventuring" is generally seen as less than a less than savory pastime (definitely not something you would be called a hero for doing).
Yes, Heroes might accrue great renoun in such places as Gondor or Rohan (or even Dale). But in the Shire or Bree, Heroes might be great subjects for stories in the local tavern, but one might not want to personally make their acquaintance.
"We might go from [the Long Lake] up along the River Running," went on Thorin..., "and so to the ruins of Dale -- the old town in the valley there, under the shadow of the Mountain. But we none of us liked the idea of the Front Gate. The river runs right out of it through the great cliff at the South of the Mountain, and out of it comes the dragon too -- far too often, unless he has changed his habits."

"That would be no good," said the wizard, "not without a mighty Warrior, even a Hero. I tried to find one; but warriors are busy fighting one another in distant lands, and in this neighbourhood heroes are scarce, or simply not to be found. Swords in these parts are mostly blunt, and axes are used for trees, and shields as cradles or dishcovers; and dragons are comfortably far-off (and therefore legendary).
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Re: Clarification re Standing Upkeep

Post by Stormcrow » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:17 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:57 am
Heroes might accrue great renoun in such places as Gondor or Rohan (or even Dale).
That would equate to favoring Valour in an encounter. Valour is your reputation for courage and glorious deeds; Wisdom is your reputation for great knowledge and judgement. I wouldn't equate heroic deeds with Standing, even in the lands of men.

Shirefolk are much more likely to favor Wisdom.

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Re: Clarification re Standing Upkeep

Post by Azrael Macool » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:56 pm

Arthur Fisher wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:04 pm
Stormcrow wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:40 am
Then you're not considering the vast distances between those places. The forest of Mirkwood alone is about the same size as all of Great Britain. I find it quite reasonable that people in medieval Scotland would not have heard of the goings-on of adventurers in Sussex.
I also consider that unreasonable. The people of Scotland knew of the adventures of John Hawkwood in his Italian campaigns and most knew of all the intricacies of the French court. Even the serfs in Inverness knew of the comings and goings of the Hundred Years war.
In fact, nobles from France and Scotland would routinely go off to fight or exile or adventure on the continent and return famous. Henry Tudor or William Marshall, for example.
This wasn't true during the Dark Ages, but in the mid and late Medieval era people kept up with adventuring knights the way people keep up with the Kardashians.
I feel I should mention that Middle Earth is definitely not at a mid and late Medieval time period by any means. Dark Ages is definitely more in line with the development level. Also, keep in mind, as I'm sure others have mentioned in this thread, Valour would cover people hearing of their great deeds, not Standing. From an Encounter standpoint, 5 Valour and 1 Standing is the same as 5 Standing and 1 Valour (well, assuming the individual in question values Valour more than Wisdom, but you get the idea), so there's still respect being given. Standing measures a slightly different thing altogether

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Re: Clarification re Standing Upkeep

Post by Otaku-sempai » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:37 am

Stormcrow wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:17 pm
Valour is your reputation for courage and glorious deeds; Wisdom is your reputation for great knowledge and judgement. I wouldn't equate heroic deeds with Standing, even in the lands of men.
I would say that depends on the specific place and time. To quote Farmir on the Men of Gondor in the late Third Age:
'We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days.'
The priorities of the folk of Bree or Esgaroth are going to be very different from the Men of Minas Tirith or the Horse-lords of Rohan.
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Re: Clarification re Standing Upkeep

Post by Stormcrow » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:32 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:37 am
Stormcrow wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:17 pm
Valour is your reputation for courage and glorious deeds; Wisdom is your reputation for great knowledge and judgement. I wouldn't equate heroic deeds with Standing, even in the lands of men.
I would say that depends on the specific place and time. To quote Farmir on the Men of Gondor in the late Third Age:
'We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days.'
The priorities of the folk of Bree or Esgaroth are going to be very different from the Men of Minas Tirith or the Horse-lords of Rohan.
In what way does Faramir's statement mean that Standing and Valour—as they are defined in the game—have the same meaning?

The priorities of different men will indeed be different—not just between different populations, but between different individuals. That doesn't mean that Standing ever has anything to do with one's reputation outside of one's own culture.

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Re: Clarification re Standing Upkeep

Post by Otaku-sempai » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:55 pm

Stormcrow wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:32 pm
In what way does Faramir's statement mean that Standing and Valour—as they are defined in the game—have the same meaning?
Who stated that they had the same meaning? I never said that. All I meant was that a martial culture is going to put a much greater importance on heroic deeds and that might have a positive impact on a Hero's Standing in such a culture. In the Shire such a reputation just has the effect of making the character seem more peculiar to most of his neighbors. I am just suggesting that in a culture that values honor and glory perhaps a Hero who has earned such honor might have a chance to keep his Standing even if he has not used Treasure to maintain it. On the other hand, that might not be fair to other Heroes from cultures that do not share such a tradition. And such deeds might not entirely make up for not being home and able to interact directly with relatives and neighbors.
The priorities of different men will indeed be different—not just between different populations, but between different individuals. That doesn't mean that Standing ever has anything to do with one's reputation outside of one's own culture.
No, and I never meant it that way. But I can see how I might have been misconstrued as I was a bit vague about the point I was trying to make. Certainly there is no need to over-complicate the Standing rules with needless optional modifiers based on Valour or Wisdom.
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Re: Clarification re Standing Upkeep

Post by doctheweasel » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:15 pm

"Where is Eothas? His strong arm and brave heart are needed in Edoras during these troubled times."

"He's off with those northerners in Woodland Hall again. Hasn't been home for more than a year. Why can't he be back here defending his own folk?"

-1 Standing despite his high Valor.

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Re: Clarification re Standing Upkeep

Post by Stormcrow » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:28 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:55 pm
Stormcrow wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:32 pm
In what way does Faramir's statement mean that Standing and Valour—as they are defined in the game—have the same meaning?
Who stated that they had the same meaning? I never said that. All I meant was that a martial culture is going to put a much greater importance on heroic deeds and that might have a positive impact on a Hero's Standing in such a culture.
Okay, it seemed otherwise to me.

Buuuuuuuuut... while logically it certainly seems like this should be the case—a successful Rohirric hero would be considered to have a higher than 0 Standing in Rohan, for instance—game-mechanically this can only be achieved indirectly. A hero can't point to his Valour and demand influence in the momentous events of the time; he can only point to his Standing.

But I don't think this is a flaw in the game. A successful hero will accumulate Treasure and has the opportunity to receive titles and patrons. He may choose to invest those things in an ability to influence events, or he may choose to remain anonymous and invest in other areas. Rather than automatically equating Experience Points -> Valour -> influence, the game lets you choose different paths. One of those paths is (Treasure -> Standing) + Receive Title -> influence. There are some undertakings that give you some limited authority in different ways.
I am just suggesting that in a culture that values honor and glory perhaps a Hero who has earned such honor might have a chance to keep his Standing even if he has not used Treasure to maintain it.
If you like, but this is a house-rule. It basically says that a nobody from nowhere who slays a bunch of orcs suddenly gains the right to sit in on councils of rulers outside of adventures. By the book, they'll honor him, but unless he demonstrates his dedication to their culture or settles down there, they won't give him a position of authority.

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