Have we been doing it wrong?

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Butterfingers
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Have we been doing it wrong?

Post by Butterfingers » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:55 am

So Fellowship points, so far we used them to replace any used personal hope points, ie. a companion is about to use a hope point, but ticks off one fellowship point instead. I re-read the rules again (slipcase edition), and it seems this is actually incorrect usage?

What it seems to say is that you can 'take' a fellowship point at any time during play and add it to your hope point tally? It doesn't matter whether you're about to use a hope point at all, actually?

Further, when the rules discuss the replenishment of fellowship points, they reset to full at the start of each session, and if you don't use them by the end of a session, you lose them? So it is possible to use them before the end of a session to replenish your hope points (up to your max value), and then at the start you get new fellowship points, right? It seems that you can pump up your hope like this every session, provided of course you don't keep bleeding hope points along the way?

And about getting hope points, it seems to say that if your fellowship focus doesn't get wounded during a session, you get one hope point? So far I've used this only at the end of an adventure, not every game session we play. So to verify, it's every session? And does it matter whether the fellowship focus actually came under threat of getting wounded, ie. does it matter whether there's combat or other potentially risky situations during session or not? If they just hang out in Rhosgobel the entire session, etc.? And about getting wounded, does this refer to getting an actual wound, or does it suffice that you lose Endurance?

Knockback, I assume this is only for the companions, and enemies cannot use it to reduce END loss?

I am sorry, these points have probably been covered multiple times, but apparently search words like hope and fellowship are too common for the forum search.

Rebali
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Re: Have we been doing it wrong?

Post by Rebali » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:49 am

The way we play it is that Fellowship can be used as a hope point instead of their own supply but then at the end of a session/adventure (we're doing The Darkening of Mirkwood so a session tends to be an adventure) then you can take your fellowship point to replenish a point of Hope.

Yep, use your fellowship point or lose it!

Doesn't matter if they were threatened with a wound or not, just as long as they were unwounded and that is a proper wound not a loss of endurance.

I think its up to you whether you take it as one session as a gaming session or an adventure. The pre-written adventures tend to be broken into chapters so I would use that as the point to replenish Fellowship points et al!

Yup just for companions

Hope this helps and don't worry, there's no such thing as a daft question.

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Indur Dawndeath
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Re: Have we been doing it wrong?

Post by Indur Dawndeath » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:47 pm

Rebali has answered all points and I agree completly.

My players tend to ask for fellowship points to replenish Hope, when their Shadow score closes in on Hope total, so there is a discussion weather a player should just accept a Bout of Madness to reset Shadow, instead of grabbing all Fellowship points...

In Nightmare in Angmar, the Woodman had used all Fellowship points, so he was at maximum Hope when he eventually had the Bout of Madness. All other players were low on Hope, but had higher Wisdom...
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Geomtje
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Re: Have we been doing it wrong?

Post by Geomtje » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:58 pm

I am fairly new to the game, but I have interpreted the rules similar to what you have.
Butterfingers wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:55 am
So Fellowship points, so far we used them to replace any used personal hope points, ie. a companion is about to use a hope point, but ticks off one fellowship point instead. I re-read the rules again (slipcase edition), and it seems this is actually incorrect usage?
The RAW 2nd edition states that
At any time during the game, players may recover spent Hope points by spending Fellowship points: for every Fellowship point spent recover one Hope point.
So to me it seems that you have to use your hope points first, before you are able to replenish it with Fellowship points, in case of becoming Miserable or Spend. Though you could still use a Fellowship Point even though you are in that state.
Butterfingers wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:55 am
What it seems to say is that you can 'take' a fellowship point at any time during play and add it to your hope point tally? It doesn't matter whether you're about to use a hope point at all, actually?
Indeed, Fellowship Points can even be used during combat and encounters. Just keep in mind that Hope can never be higher than a character’s maximum amount of Hope.
Butterfingers wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:55 am
Further, when the rules discuss the replenishment of fellowship points, they reset to full at the start of each session, and if you don't use them by the end of a session, you lose them? So it is possible to use them before the end of a session to replenish your hope points (up to your max value), and then at the start you get new fellowship points, right? It seems that you can pump up your hope like this every session, provided of course you don't keep bleeding hope points along the way?
True, it does. But remember that some sessions are shorter or longer than others and the game encourages to ‘change’ the rules to your gaming style. I personally feel that replenishing Fellowship Points should make sense story wise. So I tend to do that during the Fellowship Phase and logical points in the story, such as at a save at places such as at an inn or big city etc.
Butterfingers wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:55 am
And about getting hope points, it seems to say that if your fellowship focus doesn't get wounded during a session, you get one hope point? So far I've used this only at the end of an adventure, not every game session we play. So to verify, it's every session?
It does according the RAW. And don’t forget that they should not have been Poisoned or Miserable during the session. The rules do allow for the Loremaster to retain Fellowship Focus if something bad happened to the PC, like being captured or tortured, even though the PC has not been Warry, Poisoned or Miserable.
Butterfingers wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:55 am
And does it matter whether the fellowship focus actually came under threat of getting wounded, ie. does it matter whether there's combat or other potentially risky situations during session or not? If they just hang out in Rhosgobel the entire session, etc.?
Strictly yes. But again, the game encourages you to adapt the game to your preference. However, it does seem logical that Hope replenishes faster at a safe haven. Though players could still spend Hope during other activities and Encounters.
Butterfingers wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:55 am
And about getting wounded, does this refer to getting an actual wound, or does it suffice that you lose Endurance?
It is about actually getting Wounded, not by losing Endurance. That would imply that you would almost never get this bonus due to bad a roll during travel for example.
Butterfingers wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:55 am
Knockback, I assume this is only for the companions, and enemies cannot use it to reduce END loss?
The RAW states that a creatures cannot opt to be knocked back. This also would not seem logical since it would take half damage and spend a round recovering, likely receiving the same amount of damage.
Butterfingers wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:55 am
I am sorry, these points have probably been covered multiple times, but apparently search words like hope and fellowship are too common for the forum search.
I know the feeling, but I am happy to share my perspective :)
And again, I am fairly new to the game so I am interested on what others have to say!
Last edited by Geomtje on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
J.J.R. Tolkien wrote:...so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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Geomtje
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Re: Have we been doing it wrong?

Post by Geomtje » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:15 pm

Indur Dawndeath wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:47 pm
My players tend to ask for fellowship points to replenish Hope, when their Shadow score closes in on Hope total, so there is a discussion weather a player should just accept a Bout of Madness to reset Shadow, instead of grabbing all Fellowship points...

In Nightmare in Angmar, the Woodman had used all Fellowship points, so he was at maximum Hope when he eventually had the Bout of Madness. All other players were low on Hope, but had higher Wisdom...
Indur Dawndeath raises an interesting point. It is easy for players to forget that the RAW does allow for a group to deny a PC from using a Fellowship Points, since at least half the group should agree for the PC to take it. However, the PC can then still opt to take a Fellowship Point, but the player in question will gain a shadow point for doing so. It's something that players could be reminded on when facing such a situation.
J.J.R. Tolkien wrote:...so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

Stormcrow
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Re: Have we been doing it wrong?

Post by Stormcrow » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:09 pm

Butterfingers wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:55 am
So Fellowship points, so far we used them to replace any used personal hope points, ie. a companion is about to use a hope point, but ticks off one fellowship point instead. I re-read the rules again (slipcase edition), and it seems this is actually incorrect usage?

What it seems to say is that you can 'take' a fellowship point at any time during play and add it to your hope point tally? It doesn't matter whether you're about to use a hope point at all, actually?
Correct. The spending of fellowship points does not need to be linked to the spending of hope points. Provided you're not already at maximum hope, you can take fellowship points at any time, in any amount.
Further, when the rules discuss the replenishment of fellowship points, they reset to full at the start of each session, and if you don't use them by the end of a session, you lose them? So it is possible to use them before the end of a session to replenish your hope points (up to your max value), and then at the start you get new fellowship points, right? It seems that you can pump up your hope like this every session, provided of course you don't keep bleeding hope points along the way?
Correct. But since the fellowship pool is usually one point per party member, you can each average one point of hope per session. Some players may choose to forego spending fellowship points to allow other players, who need it more, to do so. A party with lots of hobbits will get lots of extra fellowship, and this is by design.
And about getting hope points, it seems to say that if your fellowship focus doesn't get wounded during a session, you get one hope point? So far I've used this only at the end of an adventure, not every game session we play. So to verify, it's every session? And does it matter whether the fellowship focus actually came under threat of getting wounded, ie. does it matter whether there's combat or other potentially risky situations during session or not? If they just hang out in Rhosgobel the entire session, etc.? And about getting wounded, does this refer to getting an actual wound, or does it suffice that you lose Endurance?
Yes, the status of a fellowship focus is determined at the end of every session.

The game supposes your party is going to be in dangerous circumstances most of the time, in which case your fellowship focus may indeed be in danger. But if you spend the entire session haggling in Rhosgobel, congratulations! You get a point of hope for no harm coming to your fellowship focus. As long as you enjoy that sort of thing, you'll get more hope.

But note that the rules specify that you only get that point if you are in the same location as your fellowship focus. You can't leave your fellowship focus behind in Rhosgobel, get into danger, come back, and then claim your point of hope.

The second edition of the rules clarifies that the bonus hope point is lost if the fellowship focus is "Wounded, Poisoned, Miserable, or was harmed in any other way the Loremaster considers serious..." This pretty much works for the first edition, too. Just losing endurance is not enough. Becoming unconscious because your endurance goes to zero might be enough if the referee decides it is.
Knockback, I assume this is only for the companions, and enemies cannot use it to reduce END loss?
I get that impression, though it doesn't seem explicit. Certainly it would not have a equal effect on enemies, as they don't have the opportunity to choose stances anyway.

Matt Clark
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Re: Have we been doing it wrong?

Post by Matt Clark » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:27 pm

All those Rangers of the North Player Characters will sit quietly during this discussion...! Except at the point of whether more than half the companions agree for use of the Fellowship Pool :twisted:

Butterfingers
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Re: Have we been doing it wrong?

Post by Butterfingers » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:05 am

Ok, thanks people. This would seem to change the dynamics of Hope rather a lot, as my group has been really careful not to spend them too much. Which in return leads them having harder time with travel, encounters and combat, and so on. And that in turn has caused that they haven't been miserable at all, so no opportunity for episodes of madness or permanent shadow & negative traits.

My initial reaction to this reading of the rules was that the players might take advantage of it and always have max hope. But when thinking about it, it might actually encourage them spending more hope instead of carefully nurturing it. And thus get them into more trouble... :D

Is this the case, in your experience?

Rebali
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Re: Have we been doing it wrong?

Post by Rebali » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:43 am

My group go through a fair bit of hope now we've got into it but at the start it was a lot rarer. Once they get more encounters they start wanting to use it more especially as combat gets harder and they get larger foes. One player went right down to zero hope and another has two shadow traits.
The negative traits will get used don't worry, it does scale up

Stormcrow
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Re: Have we been doing it wrong?

Post by Stormcrow » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:20 pm

Some groups spend hope like crazy and struggle not to go mad. Others never drop below maximum. It all depends on how cautious they want to be and how difficult their challenges are.

It's not a foregone conclusion that heroes should collect shadow points or flaws or experience bouts of madness. You don't have to force the party into those things if they're trying to avoid them. If the party is conservative and never gets low in hope, and if the players are enjoying the game anyway, then you're doing everything right.

On the other hand, if the players think the game is too easy, consider making the challenges more difficult. In addition to being a resource for the players, hope is a good indication to the Loremaster of how difficult his adventures have been. If the players are always at near-maximum hope, they could go on more difficult adventures. If they players are always struggling to keep their hope above their shadow, or have already developed many flaws due to bouts of madness, maybe the adventures have been too difficult.

It all depends on the preferences of the players. If they like the grim struggle, make things harder. If they like high-spirited adventure, make things easier. Use hope, shadow, and flaws to gauge how well the adventures match the players' expectations.

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