When did Gollum leave his lake and go looking for Baggins?

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Glorelendil
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When did Gollum leave his lake and go looking for Baggins?

Post by Glorelendil » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:18 pm

I've been digging around and not finding a good answer to this question. That he stayed put for "a long time" is all I can find.

Anybody know?

P.S. I think we need a third sub-forum for system agnostic discussion of Middle-earth.
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Rich H
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Re: When did Gollum leave his lake and go looking for Baggins?

Post by Rich H » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:49 pm

Not sure but perhaps 2951 is a good date as it coincides with Sauron declaring in Mordor. Creatures and people under the Shadow could feel this and be drawn to him or disturbed in some ways? Mind you, Gollum seemed pretty convinced Bilbo had stolen his Precious so I could see him leaving his digs and searching for the thief a lot sooner - which I think is how the game approaches it and how I have in my campaign.
TOR resources thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62
TOR miniatures thread: viewtopic.php?t=885

Fellowship of the Free Tale of Years: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8318

Otaku-sempai
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Re: When did Gollum leave his lake and go looking for Baggins?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:03 pm

I guess you don't have ready access to Tolkien's "Tale of Years" (LotR Appendix B)?

2944: "Gollum leaves the Mountains and begins his search for the 'thief' of the Ring." Additional note from TOR: "Some time later, he enters Mirkwood, to eventually reach Esgaroth and even the streets of Dale. For a while he is watched closely by the Wood-elves."

2947: From TOR: Gollum seeks the One Ring. "About this time, Gollum abandons the trail of Bilbo over the Misty Mountains and turns back. He hides in Mirkwood, slowly making his way to the South. His presence fills the forest with dreadful rumours, and among the Woodmen a tale starts to spread, telling of a blood-drinking ghost preying upon the unwary."

2951: "Gollum turns towards Mordor."

2980: "About this time [when Aragorn and Arwen plight their troth] Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor and becomes acquainted with Shelob."

3001: "Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn."

3009: "Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years, searching in the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years Gollum himself ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron."

3017: "Gollum is released from Mordor. He is taken by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes, and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood."
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Glorelendil
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Re: When did Gollum leave his lake and go looking for Baggins?

Post by Glorelendil » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:04 pm

Ah, great. Thank you. Just what I needed. Funny that's not in any of the first five or six online sources I checked. (I rarely have the actual books handy.)
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: When did Gollum leave his lake and go looking for Baggins?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:45 pm

Otaku always helps, we does! :twisted:
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

feld
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Re: When did Gollum leave his lake and go looking for Baggins?

Post by feld » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:02 pm

Glorendil,

I'm frequently in the same boat with respect to not having the books handy but wanting a date. I've found the Tolkien Gateway timelines pages pretty accurate to the sources.

Top level timeline page here:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline

Third Age one here:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline/Third_Age

No ToR material though :(

I've been slowly making a spreadsheet with all this material in one column and all the ToR timeline material in another. Would that be useful to anyone else when finished? (it's nowhere near done and I expect I'd need ToR's permission to include their Tale of Years in it.)

v/r
feld

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Re: When did Gollum leave his lake and go looking for Baggins?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:32 pm

feld wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:02 pm
Glorendil,

I'm frequently in the same boat with respect to not having the books handy but wanting a date. I've found the Tolkien Gateway timelines pages pretty accurate to the sources.

Top level timeline page here:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline

Third Age one here:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline/Third_Age
Oddly, Tolkien Gateway has the date wrong for when Aragorn learns of his heritage, first meets Arwen and leaves Rivendell at age 20. It should be 2951, not '52.

Or, it did. I just edited it!
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

feld
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Re: When did Gollum leave his lake and go looking for Baggins?

Post by feld » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:30 am

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:32 pm

Oddly, Tolkien Gateway has the date wrong for when Aragorn learns of his heritage, first meets Arwen and leaves Rivendell at age 20. It should be 2951, not '52.

Or, it did. I just edited it!
Uhh...Otaku, I thought so too at first but I think you should consider changing it *back*:

"As of 2015, the published version of The Lord of the Rings includes entries for the year 2951 that: Elrond reveals to Aragorn his true name and ancestry; Aragorn meets Arwen in Rivendell; and Aragorn goes into the Wild. Following research by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull, Christopher Tolkien agrees that this is in error and the correct year for these entries should be T.A. 2952.[3] Tolkien Gateway reflects this."

See here:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Third_Age_2951

The citation [3] is the Hammond/Scull website here where you can read the whole story:
https://wayneandchristina.wordpress.com ... -notes-13/
I guess the publisher has added that correction to the list for the next edition.

Like I said, it's usually pretty accurate.

v/r
feld

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Re: When did Gollum leave his lake and go looking for Baggins?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:27 am

feld wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:30 am
Uhh...Otaku, I thought so too at first but I think you should consider changing it *back*:

"As of 2015, the published version of The Lord of the Rings includes entries for the year 2951 that: Elrond reveals to Aragorn his true name and ancestry; Aragorn meets Arwen in Rivendell; and Aragorn goes into the Wild. Following research by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull, Christopher Tolkien agrees that this is in error and the correct year for these entries should be T.A. 2952.[3] Tolkien Gateway reflects this."

See here:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Third_Age_2951

The citation [3] is the Hammond/Scull website here where you can read the whole story:
https://wayneandchristina.wordpress.com ... -notes-13/
I guess the publisher has added that correction to the list for the next edition.

Like I said, it's usually pretty accurate.

v/r
feld
I realize that Hammond and Scull are diligent and respected Tolkien scholars, but I have to ask: what about "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" from The Lord of the Rings Appendix A?
'But when Estel was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned to Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond; and Elrond looked at him and was pleased, for he saw that he was fair and noble and was early come to manhood, though he would yet become greater in body and mind.
That day therefore Elrond called him by his true name, and told him who he was and whose son; and he delivered to him the heirlooms of his house.'
Has "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" been revised for the 2015 printing as well? Or is the assumption that this passage from it took place early in the year 2052, before Aragorn's twenty-first birthday (March 1)? I get the distinct impression that Aragorn is closer to age 20 here than to 21. I have the 1983 slip-cased Houghton Mifflin trilogy edition (hardcover, cloth-bound). The "Tale of Years" is consistent with Appendix A. Yes, ‘Elrond reveals ...’ begins on a new line; however, there is not enough room (in this edition) for the sentence to begin in the previous line.

Aragorn's departure from Rivendell is also more consistent with a 2951 date:
Then Aragorn took leave lovingly of Elrond; and the next day he said farewell to his mother, and to the house of Elrond, and to Arwen, and he went out into the wild. For nearly thirty years he laboured in the cause against Sauron; and he became a friend of Gandalf the Wise, from whom he gained much wisdom.'
2980 - 2951 = 29 years ("nearly thirty years"). Based on Appendix A, I contend that the galley proof 3/9/20, where the shoulder date heading ‘2952’ is marked for deletion, reflects Tolkien's intention. The Tolkien Gateway edit seems highly suspect to me.

On the subject of whether 'Elrond sends for Arwen...' should be under 3009 or 3016, I suspect that the revision is actually correct. However, that is a separate issue that is not addressed in Appendix A.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

feld
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Re: When did Gollum leave his lake and go looking for Baggins?

Post by feld » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:26 pm

That's why I said "you should consider" not "you should". I don't feel any better equipped than Sempai, Hammond, or Scull to resolve the matter or I would have changed it back myself. Just wanted to ensure that you were aware why the site changed it because it took me a lot of meandering around the Gateway to find it.

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