New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

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zedturtle
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by zedturtle » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:43 pm

Warning: long post is long.

This is going to be a discussion of how mounted combat works in 5e. I know that's not going to answer every question, but hopefully it will be enough to point the way for folks to do their own interpretations and understandings of the game.

And, of course, this is my personal understanding of how this stuff works. If I get something wrong, let me know.

The Meat:

So as mentioned earlier, there are up to five things we might talk about when a character is mounted on a creature. The mount's movement, the mount's action, the rider's movement, the rider's action, and (possibly) the rider's bonus action. I suppose that the mount could qualify for a bonus action as well. But that's not going to be in my examples.

So let's take a simple example and build from there. Let's say that we have a character already mounted on a horse that has a Speed of 60 feet. The character has a movement of 30 feet. Let's also say that there's a bad guy, and let's put him at 30 feet for right now.

Let's say that we instruct the mount to Dash and the character to Attack. The mount would have 120 feet of movement. It moves 30 feet to the enemy, the character takes the Attack action, and then the mount moves 90 feet away from the enemy. Moving away from the enemy provokes an Opportunity Attack. Normally only the moving creature (i.e. the mount) could be targeted, but the mounted combat rules specifically say if an Opportunity Attack is provoked, the enemy can target the creature or the character. So the enemy can attack you or the mount with a normal attack roll. Note that if the character has an ability that triggered on taking a Dash action it would not trigger... the character did not Dash, the mount did.

As an alternative, let's have the mount Dodge and the character Attacks still. The mount has 60 feet of movement. It moves 30 feet to the enemy, the character takes the Attack action, and then the mount moves 30 feet away from the enemy. Moving away from the enemy provokes an Opportunity Attack. The enemy can target either the mount or the rider. But if the enemy targets the mount, they have disadvantage. So the enemy will likely attack the character.

Third example. The mount Disengages and the character once again Attacks. The mount has 60 feet of movement. It moves 30 feet to the enemy, the character takes the Attack action, and then the mount moves 30 feet away from the enemy. Moving away would provoke an Opportunity Attack, but mount Disengaged, so it does not provoke the attack. The rider does not provoke an Opportunity Attack as the character is not moving under their own power (this is the clever way 5e gets around that particular issue).

— • —

With those basic examples out of the way, let's have the character do something other than take Attack as an action. Picking randomly out of the hat, let's go with Dash. Dash, of course, adds your Speed to your movement (effectively doubling your movement) but you can't attack with it. We hope the character has some special feature/trait/something that grants a bonus action of some kind.

The mount Dashes and the character Dashes. This could actually go several different ways... just because you have movement you don't have to spend it. So those actions could be declared, the character could use their movement first to dismount and then run up to the enemy (hopefully to do something useful with a bonus action). In that case, the mount's action becomes irrelevant (because it's no longer controlled and can do what it wants). Or the mount could use its movement, the character doesn't spend any movement, can't make a regular attack (since they used the Dash action not the Attack action) but could use a bonus action (if qualified) and then the mount moves away from the enemy, provoking an Opportunity Attack. Or the mount could move 120 feet, the character could dismount (costing 15 feet of movement), then move 45 feet and take (if qualified) a bonus action.

— • —

Hopefully that helps a little bit, or doesn't muddy the waters at least. It's important to realize that the mount's action is distinct from the character's action and the mount taking an action doesn't qualify as the character taking that action.
Jacob Rodgers, occasional nitwit.

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Otaku-sempai
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:05 pm

zedturtle wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:43 pm
The mount Dashes and the character Dashes. This could actually go several different ways... just because you have movement you don't have to spend it. So those actions could be declared, the character could use their movement first to dismount and then run up to the enemy (hopefully to do something useful with a bonus action). In that case, the mount's action becomes irrelevant (because it's no longer controlled and can do what it wants). Or the mount could use its movement, the character doesn't spend any movement, can't make a regular attack (since they used the Dash action not the Attack action) but could use a bonus action (if qualified) and then the mount moves away from the enemy, provoking an Opportunity Attack. Or the mount could move 120 feet, the character could dismount (costing 15 feet of movement), then move 45 feet and take (if qualified) a bonus action.
I don't think that this example is possible, zed, as long as the character remains mounted. The mount may Dash, but the rider cannot Dash as a separate action unless he first dismounts.

The only real problem with the first answer is that if the opponent is only 30 feet away, with the mount's normal movement of 60 feet, why use Dash at all? Move, attack, move; no Dash required.

The SRD-OGL for D&D 5e is of very limited use here since it omits so much: no Ranger Beast Master; no guidance for a Paladin taking the path of the Cavalier for training a Warhorse or other animal companion. The Hound of Mirkwood in AiMe gets additional actions that it can be trained and directed to perform: not just Dash, Dodge and Disengage, but also Attack and Help (assist in a skill?). Presumably, a Warhorse can act in much the same way after receiving the proper training--eventually even being able to act on its own.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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zedturtle
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by zedturtle » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:28 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:05 pm
I don't think that this example is possible, zed, as long as the character remains mounted. The mount may Dash, but the rider cannot Dash as a separate action unless he first dismounts.
Having movement is not the same as moving. In that particular case, I would envision the 'Dash' to be the rider urging the mount on. You're right that there's no particular reason to do it, unless it qualifies you to do something you couldn't otherwise do (by taking, for example, the Attack action instead).
The only real problem with the first answer is that if the opponent is only 30 feet away, with the mount's normal movement of 60 feet, why use Dash at all? Move, attack, move; no Dash required.
Because: A) the mount only has three actions in can take... it can't Ready or Hide or Help or whatever. Of course the character is free to propose a different action not listed but that's an area of definitive intepretation. And B) Dash is the least useful action, yes. Taking Dodge or Disengage would be better choices for the mount's action. Disengage in my example, maybe Dodge if caltrops are involved. :)
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:31 pm

zedturtle wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:28 pm
Because: A) the mount only has three actions in can take... it can't Ready or Hide or Help or whatever. Of course the character is free to propose a different action not listed but that's an area of definitive interpretation. And B) Dash is the least useful action, yes. Taking Dodge or Disengage would be better choices for the mount's action. Disengage in my example, maybe Dodge if caltrops are involved. :)
That doesn't seem right; there is the option of having the mount not taking any action, per se. The way I read this is that the rider does not need to direct any overt action (Dash, Dodge or Disengage) on the part of the Mount. He can direct it to take its normal movement and the rider can take his own Attack before, during or after that movement. It should work in the same manner as it does for a fighter on foot, but using the movement of the mount. Base movement does not count as an action.
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first.
Moving between Attacks
If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.
And as applied to Mounted Combat in the SRD-OGL document:
You can control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider. Domesticated horses, donkeys, and similar creatures are assumed to have such training. The initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it. It moves as you direct it, and it has only three action options: Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it.
Again, normal movement is not an action.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eldwyn
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Eldwyn » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:02 pm

Still unsure how to treat this ability =/

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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Otaku-sempai » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:17 pm

Eldwyn wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:02 pm
Still unsure how to treat this ability =/
If I am correct, I may have been wrong earlier about the number of attacks. Say that the controlled mount's Dash is counted as the Hero's action. In that case, the rider normally does not get an Attack; however, the ability Mounted Combat grants him one. If the mount is using only its normal movement and is taking no further action then the rider can Attack normally either before or after that movement. However, here the rider would not apply Mounted Combat to receive a bonus attack, so still only one.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Eldwyn
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Eldwyn » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:18 pm

Which leaves me more confused- nothing to me indicates that the rider's action is to give the mount an action...

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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Otaku-sempai » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:38 pm

Eldwyn wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:18 pm
Which leaves me more confused- nothing to me indicates that the rider's action is to give the mount an action...
Presumably the Rider is directing the mount so that its action counts as his own. I know that the 5e rules could be more clear on this.
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Eldwyn
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Eldwyn » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:44 pm

interesting. I did not catch that "directing your mount" from the 5e SRD may imply "use your action to direct your mount".

Man, I just wish this was clearer. So far 5e and AiME have been pretty great but I am mega-confused about this silliness now.
You can control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider. Domesticated horses, donkeys, and similar creatures are assumed to have such Training. The initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it. It moves as you direct it, and it has only three action options: Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it.

Eldwyn
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Eldwyn » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:45 pm

This has only added to my confusion:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/3 ... _question/

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