What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

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Michebugio
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Michebugio » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:37 pm

A quick and more or less reliable way to calculate Gimli and Legolas’ character level could be looking at their orc-slaying contest during the Battle at the Hornburg.

We know from the book that Gimli won the contest by one; he killed 42 to Legolas's 41. We also know that the orcs at the Hornburg were mainly Saruman’s Uruk-hai, that we could more or less approximate with the Black Uruks from the Loremaster’s Guide. We also know that the battle lasted just one day.

Black Uruks are CR 2, worth 450 experience points each. So Gimli and Legolas, together, totaled (42+41) x 450 = 37,350 XP that day.
Of course, they didn’t face them all at once: it is reasonable to assume that the number was reached after a series of encounters, with a couple of short rests in-between. The DM Guide suggests that assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties – in this case, a two-men party (or more appropriately, an elf-and-dwarf-party :mrgreen: ) – can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day.

We also know that Legolas was unscathed, and Gimli only received a minor head injury (and his axe was notched on the iron collar of the forty-first Uruk): so I would assume that they were all Medium encounters, never seriously endangering our heroes.

So we can say that if Gimli and Legolas pushed their luck and resources (and the dire conditions of the battle required it!), they made around ten Medium combat encounters that day, each worth 3,735 XP. This means that they faced together, on average, approximately 8 Uruks in each encounter (plus three remaining to be distributed among them, for a total of 83 Uruks killed).

We’re almost there: 8 Uruks, taking into account the XP adjustment for multiple monsters, is a good Medium encounter for a party whose XP Threshold is 3,735 XP x 2.5 (encounter multiplier for 7-10 monsters) = 9,337.5 XP.

This could mean the following two options:

1) Legolas at 19th level (XP threshold: 4,900) and Gimli at 18th – 19th level (XP threshold: 4,200/4,900).
2) Legolas at 20th level (XP threshold: 5,700) and Gimli at 17th level (XP threshold: 3,900).


If these results seem too high to you, we can reason that in the Battle of Hornburg, the Uruk-hai were reinforced by common Orcs and Dunlendings, so maybe the average Challenge Rating of the enemies faced by Gimli and Legolas was CR 1 (200 XP), instead of 2. So the total would have been 16,600 XP in a day for our heroes.
Going through all the calculations again, with the same assumptions as above, we end up with a Party whose XP Threshold is more or less 4,000, which is a good Medium encounter if we consider the following options:

1) Both Legolas and Gimli at level 12 (XP Threshold: 2,000);
2) Legolas at 13th-14th level (XP threshold: 2,200/2,500) and Gimli at 11th level (XP threshold: 1,600);

I wouldn’t go lower than 11 with Gimli’s level, since he’s a Warrior and he definitely needs his 3rd attack ;)


In general, I would say that Legolas could sit anywhere between 12th and 20th level, while Gimli falls a little behind (but packs up more martial prowess - and hit points!) between 11th and 18th-19th level.

And of course, both should have the Weaponmaster’s Challenge Warrior feature!


Cheers!

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Morgoth
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Morgoth » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:04 pm

An interesting take on it, Michebugio. I would say somewhere in between your two examples would be most reasonable.
I smashed down the light and dared Valinor
I smashed down the light, revenge will be mine

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Southron Loremaster
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Southron Loremaster » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:45 pm

Damn it! Can't stay away. :)

What would you make of Boromir's departure? There it says that at least 20 Orcs were slain and that was in one encounter. Sorry, I don't have enough time at the moment to look for how many Orcs may have been in the encounter. With at least 20 slain, being pierced by many arrow, and the numbers that ran toward Rohan, I will guess that he may have made several death saves and spent HD to keep going.

Maybe he used " Indomitable" ? Or, maybe "Famed Protector" I'm thinking about the last sentence there.

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Southron Loremaster
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Southron Loremaster » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:07 pm

One more quick thing, I wonder then for heroes like Glorfindel would they get the Epic Boons and perhaps at a certain level also use the Epic Heroism rest variants to truly reflect their power?

Michebugio
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Michebugio » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:49 pm

What would you make of Boromir's departure? There it says that at least 20 Orcs were slain and that was in one encounter. Sorry, I don't have enough time at the moment to look for how many Orcs may have been in the encounter. With at least 20 slain, being pierced by many arrow, and the numbers that ran toward Rohan, I will guess that he may have made several death saves and spent HD to keep going.
It says that there were at least 20 Uruk bodies, which would mean an astounding 9,000 XP all by himself!

Even assuming it was a Deadly Encounter, with an XP Threshold multiplier of x4 (15+ monsters), the XP Threshold would have been an impossible 36,000 XP, three times the value for a 20th level character (!): so either he had time to rest between various fights (but it seems unlikely), or those were not Black Uruks.

If, for hypothesis, Boromir's adversaries were simple Orc Soldiers (CR 1/2, 100 XP), then the XP Threshold would have been 8,000 XP, which is a Deadly encounter for a 16th or 17th level character. So with a bit of luck he could have won the encounter against the 20 orcs, and then succumb to others that may have come.

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Southron Loremaster
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Southron Loremaster » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:58 pm

Michebugio wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:49 pm
What would you make of Boromir's departure? There it says that at least 20 Orcs were slain and that was in one encounter. Sorry, I don't have enough time at the moment to look for how many Orcs may have been in the encounter. With at least 20 slain, being pierced by many arrow, and the numbers that ran toward Rohan, I will guess that he may have made several death saves and spent HD to keep going.
It says that there were at least 20 Uruk bodies, which would mean an astounding 9,000 XP all by himself!

Even assuming it was a Deadly Encounter, with an XP Threshold multiplier of x4 (15+ monsters), the XP Threshold would have been an impossible 36,000 XP, three times the value for a 20th level character (!): so either he had time to rest between various fights (but it seems unlikely), or those were not Black Uruks.

If, for hypothesis, Boromir's adversaries were simple Orc Soldiers (CR 1/2, 100 XP), then the XP Threshold would have been 8,000 XP, which is a Deadly encounter for a 16th or 17th level character. So with a bit of luck he could have won the encounter against the 20 orcs, and then succumb to others that may have come.
Wow! Thanks for the math.

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ThrorII
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by ThrorII » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:43 pm

You can also use kobold fight club to figure out CR's and lethality based on levels.

The Two Towers ('The Departure of Boromir' and 'The Uruk-Hai') state that Boromir had 'at least' 20 dead orcs at his feet when he was found dead. Pippin reminisces that when they were first captured, Boromir appeared and slew several (4+?), then the Orcs ran off. Boromir and the Hobbits ran away, but were re-engaged shortly after. That is where Boromir fell and was found with 20+ dead Orcs . Also, while there were a small core leader group of Uruk-Hai (Black Uruks), the majority of the 100 or so Orcs seemed to be Misty Mountain Orcs with a few Mordor Orcs and a Messanger from Lugburtz. So the idea that Boromir killed 20 or so 1/2CR Orcs, and was not engaged by Black Uruks is valid (the BU's might have used the MM Orcs as fodder).

Assuming Boromir was 15th level (my default assumption), then his final stand during the Departure of Boromir (TTT) becomes "deadly" at fifteen 1/2 CR Orcs.

With Famed Protector and the HP boost from his charges', and a Second Wind, it is conceivable for a 15th level Warrior (Knight) to have a couple good Death Save rolls and kill 20 Orcs, but die in the process.

I also think that Legolas and Gimli being between 11th and 14th level fits well (with Gimli between 11 and 12th, and Legolas between 12th and 14th).

Nice to know that 5e can actually emulate similar combats, with similar results.

Mykesfree
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Mykesfree » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:36 pm

ThrorII you hit the nail on the head on why I really wanted to see developed on this thread. The threats presented in the LMG really do simulate the novels.

While I know Thorin & Co. could be a bit more tedious, but they did face a more varied Bestiary than the Fellowship did.

I have maintained that without the Area of Effect spell from D&D, once the action economy favours the enemy even high-level characters will need to run. Even high-level player heroes can't kill a CR 1 Monster from the LMG with one hit. So it would be nice to see a different "party makeup".

JVV
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by JVV » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:53 pm

Morgoth wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:37 am
Indeed, that's what a get for googling something lol. However, I think it's still clear that he's far far older. And we're talking about levels which are definitely at least somewhat dependent on time. Boromir would have to be earning XP well over ten times as fast to put him at the same level as Legolas. I just don't see that as being feasible. Same is true in real life. The more you practice, the better you are. Doesn't mean you can't be better than someone who's been practicing for longer, but if someone has been practicing for 20 times as long, there's a pretty good chance they're going to be better at it than you. I don't see how Boromir would be a better warrior when he's been training for decades while Legolas has been training for centuries or even millennia.
A few things of possible note:

(1) Men change quickly in JRRT's world compared to elves. This was one of their gifts. This may mean they learn more in a shorter period of time than elves, but the average elf will still be more skilled than the average man.
(2) Boromir has been actively engaged in warfare very recently. It's hard to say how much Legolas has seen. -Obviously he's seen a good bit over his life but still, it's tough to say.
(3) As a novelist, JRRT has the benefit of not having to be consistent with game mechanics. He's surprisingly consistent in his descriptions but still.
(4) In real life people top out in skills or at least hit diminishing returns. Also, Legolas might well have effectively multiclassed at some point. It's not clear, of course. He seems pretty much a pure warrior in the story but maybe 1000 years ago he was really into interpretive dance....

poosticks7
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by poosticks7 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:59 am

(Just an aside)


How much stuff have you forgotten from 10 years ago, let alone 100-1000 years ago?

I've never brought into the 'all elves are uber warriors' thing that a lot of folk insist on. They don't spend every moment of their considerable lives practicing marital skills.

As to the dwarves of Thorin's Company, they are all multi-class, they all have a few levels in bumbling idiot. :)

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