What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

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ThrorII
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by ThrorII » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:03 pm

T.S. Luikart wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:01 pm
I have many thoughts on this subject I may be able to share with you guys more fully in the future - I will say this (and mind you, this is purely a personal non-official take) - I agree with ThrorII - in fact, it's like he read my notes. ;)

I have Aragorn as a 15th level character that turns 16th level during the events of the War of the Ring (basically, as he Milestones: "Become King").

17th+ in general belong to the 1st and 2nd Age. Only a few left like that in the Twilight of the 3rd Age.

Ignore as you see fit.
I'd like to say great minds think alike, but I'll settle for once in a while I think like a great mind.

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Morgoth
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Morgoth » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:31 pm

Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:29 am
For your thoughts on Legolas', Gimli, and Aragorn being at a disadvantage:

In the " King of the Golden Hall" is says that Aragorn and Legolas were "arrayed in shining mail, helms, and round shields" ...and for Gimli " there was not hauberk in the hoards of Edoras of better make than his short corset forged beneath the Mountain in the North. He took a helm too.

There is no mention of them discarding their war gear.
I forgot about that. Perhaps they did still have the mail.
Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:29 am
For Eowyn's remark, actually, it wasn't Eowyn's comment but the narrator's comment that said, " ...and yet knew, for she was bred among men of war, that there was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle"

I take that as Tolkien stating Faramir > than any rider of the Mark.
Well, remember the "narrator" is either Bilbo or Frodo.

Also, like I said before, saying "no Rider of the Mark would outmatch" him, means that he is greater than or equal to all Riders of the Mark.
Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:29 am
Your Balrog comment does have merit. But, I am not sure even if he knew what it was he would have fled.
Possibly true, but is that a good thing? One does not simply get to level 15 without knowing when to fight and when to run.
Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:29 am
Is there any literary evidence to support your thoughts on Gimli and Legolas? I couldn't find any myself, so it would great if you could point it out for me.
When the fellowship is attacked by wargs, Boromir is described killing one warg while Legolas is described as killing many including the warg chieftain.
He was the first to identify the Balrog.
Legolas shot down a fellbeast (with a Nazgul riding it) in one shot in the dark.
He, along with Elladan, and Elrohir (two of the greatest elven warriors of the 3rd Age, with a bit of Maia blood in them too boot) were the only ones undaunted at the Paths of the Dead.
He's almost 3,000 years old.
Lineage matters in ME. Both have noble blood, however Legolas is the son of a Elf King, while Boromir is the son of a Steward.

As far as Gimli goes, it makes sense to put the two at a similar level since they are a fairly even match in battle. But I'd be willing to put Boromir at or even a level above Gimli.
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Mykesfree » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:45 pm

Does anyone want to take stab at Thorin Oakensheild? Also, do we think the other dwarves are a mix of single class Slayers and Warriors or do we think a bunch of Multiclass Dex based Warriors and Treasure Hunters?

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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Majestic » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:05 pm

Morgoth wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:45 pm
AkaKageWarrior wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:56 pm
Totally forgot about Imrahil. It's some decades ago that I read the books, and in between were many watchings of the movies...
I was disappointed that they left him out. He was one of my favorite supporting characters.
There were some knights shown in the movies, and the Decipher CCG, as the official licensee, identified them as the Knights of Dol Amroth (with full permission from TPTB).

They even made a card for Prince Imrahil, who I think was shown (I don't recall if he had any lines), though I realize he wasn't identified as such in the film.
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Curulon » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:35 pm

Majestic wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:05 pm
Morgoth wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:45 pm
AkaKageWarrior wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:56 pm
Totally forgot about Imrahil. It's some decades ago that I read the books, and in between were many watchings of the movies...
I was disappointed that they left him out. He was one of my favorite supporting characters.
There were some knights shown in the movies, and the Decipher CCG, as the official licensee, identified them as the Knights of Dol Amroth (with full permission from TPTB).

They even made a card for Prince Imrahil, who I think was shown (I don't recall if he had any lines), though I realize he wasn't identified as such in the film.
He did have a line or two in the Extended Edition, I believe.

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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Southron » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm

Morgoth wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:31 pm

Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:29 am
For Eowyn's remark, actually, it wasn't Eowyn's comment but the narrator's comment that said, " ...and yet knew, for she was bred among men of war, that there was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle"

I take that as Tolkien stating Faramir > than any rider of the Mark.
Well, remember the "narrator" is either Bilbo or Frodo.

Also, like I said before, saying "no Rider of the Mark would outmatch" him, means that he is greater than or equal to all Riders of the Mark.
I will refrain from getting into who is really telling the story, but the point was that IIRC Faramir says that Boromir is a better warrior, thus IF the narrator is correct Boromir is better than all the war bred Rohirrim.

Your Balrog comment does have merit. But, I am not sure even if he knew what it was he would have fled.


Possibly true, but is that a good thing? One does not simply get to level 15 without knowing when to fight and when to run.
It was just show that he may have been a 15th level character using an ability.
Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:29 am
.
When the fellowship is attacked by wargs, Boromir is described killing one warg while Legolas is described as killing many including the warg chieftain.

Since we both seem to have a pedantic streak aside from the one that he killed before the main battle that came at Gandalf, during the pack's attack on the camp it does say he killed one, otherwise it says his bow was singing. Not that each was a killing bow. It did not describe Gimli killing any at all.
He was the first to identify the Balrog.

Knowing what something is doesn't make one a better warrior. Yes, there are other factor that can go into it but the knowledge in and off itself... because of my age I can recognize some older MMA fighters from ages past doesn't mean I'm a better martial artist because I can identify them.
Legolas shot down a fellbeast (with a Nazgul riding it) in one shot in the dark.
With his "magic Lorien Bow" and Elves can see in the dark. Seeking better in the dark is an advantage, but again in and of itself does make one a superior ass-kicker.
He, along with Elladan, and Elrohir (two of the greatest elven warriors of the 3rd Age, with a bit of Maia blood in them too boot) were the only ones undaunted at the Paths of the Dead.
As an Immortal Elf he is not afraid of the Shades of Men. It doesn't directly make him a better warrior.
He's almost 3,000 years old.
I believe that is Peter Jackson thing from the films. I don't believe Tolkien gave us much on his age. But a 3,000 year old scholar is not a better fighter than a human trained for warrior since childhood. Yes, there are other things that can come into play, but Age in and of itself does not make one a better warrior.

Morgoth,
We have both presented our cases for why and why not. With seemingly neither of us able to convince the other, so let's just say that we feel differently about who is a better warrior and if C7 does give some stats for the Fellowship in Aime or TOR in the future one of us can simply say the design team supports our view.

Until then happy gaming

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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:00 pm

Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm
He's almost 3,000 years old.
I believe that is Peter Jackson thing from the films. I don't believe Tolkien gave us much on his age. But a 3,000 year old scholar is not a better fighter than a human trained for warrior since childhood. Yes, there are other things that can come into play, but Age in and of itself does not make one a better warrior.
Yes, all Tolkien tells us is that Legolas is old enough to think of the other members of the Fellowship as children (even Gandalf?). Background material developed for Jackson's LotR movies ascribed Legolas the year of 87 (Third Age) as his year of birth. However, that might not be too far off from what Tolkien might have said if he'd been asked. Though the author might have instead made the Elf a bit younger. We just don't know.

I will note that, technically, Elladan and Elrohir were not full-blooded Elves, but Peredhil (Half-elven). I guess it's not too far off to refer to them as 'elven warriors'.
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by ThrorII » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:11 am

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:00 pm
Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm
He's almost 3,000 years old.
Yes, all Tolkien tells us is that Legolas is old enough to think of the other members of the Fellowship as children (even Gandalf?). Background material developed for Jackson's LotR movies ascribed Legolas the year of 87 (Third Age) as his year of birth. However, that might not be too far off from what Tolkien might have said if he'd been asked. Though the author might have instead made the Elf a bit younger. We just don't know.
PJ made up the 87TA birthday.

Tolkien never gave an exact age for Legolas, but we can draw some conclusions based on his background writings.

We know that Legolas is unfamiliar with the Silvan Elves of Lothlorien, it is stated in the books. The Mirkwood elves lived in Southern Mirkwood (around Amon Lanc/Dol Guldor), across from Lorien, until about 1000TA. After the Shadow returned and southern Mirkwood became foul, the Mirkwood Elves moved north, beyond the Mountains of Mirkwood (to the Woodland Realm of the Hobbit and LotR). It can be assumed that the Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien had relations up until time, being just across the Anduin from each other.

Now, that would imply that Legolas was not around in 1000TA, since he has no direct knowledge of Lorien or it's Elves. So, we can draw a conclusion that he is less than 2000 years old. How much less is anyone's guess.

Tolkien's writings tend to show elves being born only in times of peace. Between 1000TA and 2000TA, there is a growing shadow, so not much of a peace. BUT Sauron flees east from Gandalf in 2063TA, and THAT gives us 400 years of peace (the 'Watchful Peace'). I like to think Legolas was born during this time, making him 600 to 1000 years old, making him the youngest elf written about in LotR.

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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:24 am

ThrorII wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:11 am
Otaku-sempai wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:00 pm
Yes, all Tolkien tells us is that Legolas is old enough to think of the other members of the Fellowship as children (even Gandalf?). Background material developed for Jackson's LotR movies ascribed Legolas the year of 87 (Third Age) as his year of birth. However, that might not be too far off from what Tolkien might have said if he'd been asked. Though the author might have instead made the Elf a bit younger. We just don't know.
PJ made up the 87TA birthday.
Yes, I know. I stated as much.
Tolkien never gave an exact age for Legolas, but we can draw some conclusions based on his background writings.

We know that Legolas is unfamiliar with the Silvan Elves of Lothlorien, it is stated in the books. The Mirkwood elves lived in Southern Mirkwood (around Amon Lanc/Dol Guldor), across from Lorien, until about 1000TA. After the Shadow returned and southern Mirkwood became foul, the Mirkwood Elves moved north, beyond the Mountains of Mirkwood (to the Woodland Realm of the Hobbit and LotR). It can be assumed that the Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien had relations up until time, being just across the Anduin from each other.
I don't know that we should assume this, but I'll go along with it; though the approximate date the Shadow fell on the Greenwood was about the year 1050.
Now, that would imply that Legolas was not around in 1000TA, since he has no direct knowledge of Lorien or it's Elves. So, we can draw a conclusion that he is less than 2000 years old. How much less is anyone's guess.

Tolkien's writings tend to show elves being born only in times of peace. Between 1000TA and 2000TA, there is a growing shadow, so not much of a peace. BUT Sauron flees east from Gandalf in 2063TA, and THAT gives us 400 years of peace (the 'Watchful Peace'). I like to think Legolas was born during this time, making him 600 to 1000 years old, making him the youngest elf written about in LotR.
That's interesting reasoning. I don't think we can draw firm conclusions from it, but if I were to agree then I would put Legolas at closer to one thousand years old than six hundred or less. Just think, if Legolas was born during the Watchful Peace, he might be about the same age as--or even younger than--the film character of Tauriel. These quotes from Legolas do make me think he is far older than a mere half-century or so:
'[Fangorn] is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children.' - The Two Towers, "The White Rider"

'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since [the feast-hall of Medulseld was built],' said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to us.' - The Two Towers "The King of the Golden Hall"

'These are the strangest trees that ever I saw,' he said; 'and I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age.' - The Two Towers, "The Road to Isengard"
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What Classes are the Fellowship and Thorin & Co.?

Post by Morgoth » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:37 am

Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm
I will refrain from getting into who is really telling the story, but the point was that IIRC Faramir says that Boromir is a better warrior, thus IF the narrator is correct Boromir is better than all the war bred Rohirrim.
This might be the case. It could also be that Faramir was saying nice things about his dead brother. But yeah, Boromir probably was a better warrior than his brother. That's what older brothers are for, right? lol

But, I could easily imagine situations in battle where Warrior A can beat Warrior B, who in turn can beat Warrior C, who in turn can beat Warrior A. As far as I know, fighting skills are not completely transitive. Different styles work well against other styles and not as well against others.

But even if we assume that Boromir is better than Eomer and all the other Rohirrim. That still tells us nothing about how he compares to Legolas or Gimli.

Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm
Since we both seem to have a pedantic streak aside from the one that he killed before the main battle that came at Gandalf, during the pack's attack on the camp it does say he killed one, otherwise it says his bow was singing. Not that each was a killing bow. It did not describe Gimli killing any at all.
If Legolas can kill a warg chieftain in one shot, it seems logical to assume he could kill a normal warg in one shot as well. Even if his last shot was a critical hit (probably from Gandalf's help or perhaps a stinging arrow) it seems pretty likely that a normal shot would be able to kill the weaker wargs.

Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm

Knowing what something is doesn't make one a better warrior. Yes, there are other factor that can go into it but the knowledge in and off itself... because of my age I can recognize some older MMA fighters from ages past doesn't mean I'm a better martial artist because I can identify them.
But in AiME skills are tied to proficiency bonus which is tied to your level.

Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm

With his "magic Lorien Bow" and Elves can see in the dark. Seeking better in the dark is an advantage, but again in and of itself does make one a superior ass-kicker.
He still one-shotted a fell beast. I'm guessing it had a lot of HP. At least 50 or so. And even if we say the Lorien bow was a +3 greatbow (which I highly doubt that is it) Legolas is going to have to be pretty high level to one-shot it.

Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm

As an Immortal Elf he is not afraid of the Shades of Men. It doesn't directly make him a better warrior.
When Boromir is not afraid of something, it means he's the better warrior. However, when Legolas isn't afraid of something, it doesn't mean anything. That seems inconsistent.

I know you're trying to say that he wasn't afraid only because he was an elf, but I don't think this is the case. Elves clearly know fear. And while high elves can see into the Unseen or Wraith-World to some extent, but I don't think this is the case for Sindar. I think Legolas had a high enough Wisdom save that he just wasn't afraid of ghosts.

Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm

I believe that is Peter Jackson thing from the films. I don't believe Tolkien gave us much on his age. But a 3,000 year old scholar is not a better fighter than a human trained for warrior since childhood. Yes, there are other things that can come into play, but Age in and of itself does not make one a better warrior.
Indeed, that's what a get for googling something lol. However, I think it's still clear that he's far far older. And we're talking about levels which are definitely at least somewhat dependent on time. Boromir would have to be earning XP well over ten times as fast to put him at the same level as Legolas. I just don't see that as being feasible. Same is true in real life. The more you practice, the better you are. Doesn't mean you can't be better than someone who's been practicing for longer, but if someone has been practicing for 20 times as long, there's a pretty good chance they're going to be better at it than you. I don't see how Boromir would be a better warrior when he's been training for decades while Legolas has been training for centuries or even millennia.

Southron Loremaster wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm

Morgoth,
We have both presented our cases for why and why not. With seemingly neither of us able to convince the other, so let's just say that we feel differently about who is a better warrior and if C7 does give some stats for the Fellowship in Aime or TOR in the future one of us can simply say the design team supports our view.

Until then happy gaming
I've been enjoying our debate, but I understand that most people are not like me and do not savor a good argument. I hope I didn't offend you in any way. Anyway, happy gaming to you as well!
I smashed down the light and dared Valinor
I smashed down the light, revenge will be mine

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