Virtues for Men of Shadow

The place for discussion of Cubicle 7 and Sophisticated Games' "Adventures in Middle-earth" OGL setting.
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Tolwen
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Re: Virtues for Men of Shadow

Post by Tolwen » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:50 pm

Soninlawofelfland wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:55 pm
The Cosair's intermingling with the people of Umber wouldn't necessarily diminish their Numenorean heritage much as the Umbrans themselves contained the most significant reservoir of the Black Numenoreans. Sure, there were also Haradrim, but to say it disappeared by the War of the Ring sounds a bit much.
The versions of the "expanded" Appendix A as printed in the HoME12 (Tolkien had to shorten it due to demands by his publisher) contain the following passages:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:The rebels of Umbar had never ceased to make war on Gondor since the death of Kastamir, attacking its ships and raiding its coast at every opportunity. They had however become much mixed in blood through admission of Men of Harad, and only their chieftains, descendants of Kastamir, were of Numenorean race.
[...]
The sons of Kastamir and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar, and there made a fortified haven. They never ceased to make war upon Gondor, attacking its ships and coasts when they had opportunity. But they married women of the Harad and had in three generations lost most of their Numenorean blood; but they did not forget their feud with the house of Eldakar.
The important point is of course that Tolkien explicitly mentions that Castamir's followers married "lesser men" (and not descendants of other Númenóreans). In addition it is interesting to note that he singles Castamir's line out as the one that keeps its blood more or less pure. Combine this with a note from the published Appendix A, we end up with two types of Corsairs in the Third Age:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:In that war [Telumehtar's attack in TA 1810] the last descendants of Castamir perished, and Umbar was again held for a while by the kings.
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Tolwen
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Southron
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Re: Virtues for Men of Shadow

Post by Southron » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:27 pm

Perhaps Men of Umbar could have a virtue similar to the Dwarves' "Old Hatred".

Maybe borrowing from the special abilities of LM characters and making them virtues.

The Dunlandings could provide some inspiration too.

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Morgoth
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Re: Virtues for Men of Shadow

Post by Morgoth » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:05 am

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:52 pm
As far as I know, all of the Nazgûl had their origins in the Second Age; I doubt that the Mouth of Sauron is anywhere near as old, extended life or not. Tolkien wrote that "he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again." The rebuilding of Barad-dûr began in the year 2951, so the Lieutenant of Barad-dûr might have been less than seventy years old when the Dark Tower fell or he might have been a century old or more.
Well he was old enough to forget his own name.
The Black Gate Opens, The Return of the King wrote:and his name is remembered in no tale; he himself had forgotten it
True, he couldn't have entered "the service of the Dark Tower" while the tower was not in existence. But that does not mean he was born after the tower was rebuilt. He could have been a wicked man that worship Sauron for hundreds (or even thousands)of years before he "entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again." In fact, the rest of the quote you mentioned kind of implies that this is the case.
The Black Gate Opens, The Return of the King wrote:But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again
Otaku-sempai wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:52 pm
Virtue for Black Númenóreans: Pupil of Sauron. The character has been tutored in sorcery and has gained the Special Ability: Words of Power and Terror. Alternately, the character gains a Dreadful Spell.
I really like Pupil of Sauron. I'm probably going to use that or something similar.
I smashed down the light and dared Valinor
I smashed down the light, revenge will be mine

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Morgoth
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Re: Virtues for Men of Shadow

Post by Morgoth » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:25 am

Soninlawofelfland wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:55 pm
The Cosair's intermingling with the people of Umber wouldn't necessarily diminish their Numenorean heritage much as the Umbrans themselves contained the most significant reservoir of the Black Numenoreans. Sure, there were also Haradrim, but to say it disappeared by the War of the Ring sounds a bit much.
There might still have been some in Umbar with a large Numenorean heritage, but not many. Umbar had been conquered by the Haradrim several times. I'm guessing most people in Umbar had a small portion of Numenorean in their bloodline, but it had dwindled.

I can't seem to find the exact place in Appendix A, but in Tolkien Gateway it says:
Tolkien Gateway wrote:Umbar had been reclaimed by the Haradrim, rebuilt and occupied and for the rest of the Third Age. It became a home for a new generation of 'Corsairs of Umbar', who must have been closely related to the Haradrim, if not even merely Southrons themselves.
EDIT: It seems like Towen found the passage anyway! Kudos to you.
I smashed down the light and dared Valinor
I smashed down the light, revenge will be mine

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Morgoth
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Re: Virtues for Men of Shadow

Post by Morgoth » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:38 am

Southron Loremaster wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:27 pm
Perhaps Men of Umbar could have a virtue similar to the Dwarves' "Old Hatred".

Maybe borrowing from the special abilities of LM characters and making them virtues.

The Dunlandings could provide some inspiration too.
Yeah, I was thinking something along those lines. Right now I have this as one of their virtues:

Pirate
You gain proficiency with Water Vehicles. In addition, you add your Charisma modifier to your weapon damage while you’re on a ship or whenever you attack a Man of Gondor (Including Men of Minas Tirith and Men of Dol Amroth).

Special abilities for LM characters is a good idea too. That could actually work for most of the races I'm looking at. Maybe things like Disarming Attack, Distracting Attack, Savage Assault, No Quarter.
I smashed down the light and dared Valinor
I smashed down the light, revenge will be mine

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Virtues for Men of Shadow

Post by Otaku-sempai » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:22 pm

Morgoth wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:05 am
True, he couldn't have entered "the service of the Dark Tower" while the tower was not in existence. But that does not mean he was born after the tower was rebuilt. He could have been a wicked man that worship Sauron for hundreds (or even thousands)of years before he "entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again." In fact, the rest of the quote you mentioned kind of implies that this is the case.
The Black Gate Opens, The Return of the King wrote:But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again
I have assumed that the Mouth of Sauron was born sometime before the Dark Tower was restored, but if he hadn't entered into the service of Sauron until it was rebuilt then he probably had not been trained in sorcery before then either. So he couldn't be too much older than the restored Tower of Barad-dûr even if he had been granted one of the recovered Rings of Power that had previously been given to the Dwarves.
I really like Pupil of Sauron. I'm probably going to use that or something similar.
Great! I would like to find out how you modify it and how well it works for you.
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Morgoth
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Re: Virtues for Men of Shadow

Post by Morgoth » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:16 am

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:22 pm
I have assumed that the Mouth of Sauron was born sometime before the Dark Tower was restored, but if he hadn't entered into the service of Sauron until it was rebuilt then he probably had not been trained in sorcery before then either. So he couldn't be too much older than the restored Tower of Barad-dûr even if he had been granted one of the recovered Rings of Power that had previously been given to the Dwarves.
I had just assumed that he was a sorcerer and had extended his life with magic somehow. I know he learned more sorcery under Sauron once Barad-Dur was rebuilt, but he could have learned some before too. As a Numenorean, he would already have quite a long life span. Most of them lived well over 200 years.

But yeah, it's also possible that he's not all that old (one or two hundred or so) and forgot his name for some other reason. Perhaps it was a side effect of vile sorcery, or perhaps he voluntarily forgot his name as a sign of dedication to Sauron. I guess it's really all conjecture.
Otaku-sempai wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:22 pm
Great! I would like to find out how you modify it and how well it works for you.
I'll let you know!
I smashed down the light and dared Valinor
I smashed down the light, revenge will be mine

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Virtues for Men of Shadow

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:20 am

By the end of the Third Age the bloodlines of any remaining Black Númenóreans would have been very thin. I doubt that they much benefited from it in terms of their longevity. In Gondor itself Ecthelion II, the father of Denethor and grandfather of Boromir and Faramir, only lived to be 98 years old and his bloodline was probably at least as pure as that of any Black Númenóreans still in existence. Faramir fared slightly better, born in TA 2983 and died in the year 82 of the Fourth Age (aged 120 years). However, you do have a point; the Mouth of Sauron might have been somewhat learned in sorcery even before the restoration of Barad-dûr.
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