Converting High Elves of Rivendell

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Michebugio
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Re: Converting High Elves of Rivendell

Post by Michebugio » Sun May 14, 2017 9:41 am

Waiting to see ThrorII's adaptation as well, I've made a conversion too, trying to keep them at a power level comparable to that of the Dùnedain. Even with the following, powerful stats, they still pale in comparison with the ancient Noldorin heroes, and I have a hard time to imagine a 1st level High-Elf in the Third Age. Therefore, I think that they are more suitable if played at higher levels, at least from 5th level and upwards.


HIGH ELVES OF RIVENDELL

Ability Score Increase – Your Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores increase by 1.

Against the Unseen - High Elves can perceive creatures that dwell in the wraithworld, be they spirits or ghosts, even when they are normally invisible to the eyes of the living (including Unclad and Invisible Ringwraiths).
Additionally, High Elves have advantage on saving throws against being frightened, and are considered to succeed automatically at any saving throw against being frightened by an undead creature.

The Eyes of Elves – You have proficiency in the Perception skill.

Elvish Dreams – Your sleep is not like that of mortals. When you sleep, you can choose to send your mind into an “Elvish Dream” retaining full consciousness of your surroundings and you needn’t close your eyes. Four hours spent in such dreams acts on you as if you had rested an entire night.

The Tools of War – You have proficiency with broadswords, long swords, short swords, and long bows.

Skill of the Eldar - You have proficiency in the Lore skill. You also gain proficiency with an artisan’s
tools of your choice: calligrapher's supplies, cartographer’s tools, jeweller’s tools, smith’s tools, or woodcarver’s tools. You also gain proficiency in one musical instrument of your choice.

Languages – You can speak the Ancient Tongue of the elves, the Quenya, along with the ability to
speak, read, and write Sindarin. You can also speak the Common Tongue.

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ThrorII
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Re: Converting High Elves of Rivendell

Post by ThrorII » Mon May 15, 2017 5:57 am

Last edited by ThrorII on Wed May 17, 2017 11:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Hastati
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Re: Converting High Elves of Rivendell

Post by Hastati » Mon May 15, 2017 6:40 am

Many thanks for that.
When I die I want the Arsenal players to lower me into my grave so they can let me down one last time.

Michebugio
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Re: Converting High Elves of Rivendell

Post by Michebugio » Mon May 15, 2017 12:54 pm

ThrorII wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 5:57 am
Here is my take (v2)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6Lla ... XZXek5xLTQ
Nice writeup, ThrorII! We've made very similar versions, what do you think of mine?

Also, I have some observations:


1) Ability scores increase: as you may have noticed, we both kept a total +4 bonus, but my version sacrifices 1 point of Dexterity for Charisma, compared to yours. I saw fit a Charisma increase, since the Noldor are described as "the proudest of the Elves"; in the words of the Sindar, they came to Middle-earth because "they needed room to quarrel in".
Also, compare with their TOR counterpart: there, they are skilled singers (Song is their favoured skill) and less athletic (1 point less in Athletics), being (probably) less accustomed to living in forests and in general less nimble and elusive than their Mirkwood cousins.

Would that be enough to give them one less point in Dexterity and one bonus in Charisma? I'm eager to hear your reasoning on this.


2) Night Vision: for the sake of balance, I decided to drop this ability to make room for Against the Unseen, but I see that you've kept this from Mirkwood Elves. But Rivendell Elves don't live in thick forests, or undeground, so maybe their eyes are less accustomed to dim light. In any case, I failed to find any reference to this particular ability referred to the Noldorin, so as a matter of fact I'm ignorant on this aspect.


3) The Tools of War: as I pointed out also in another topic, proficiency in daggers and spears do not count as a benefit, since every class is already proficient with simple weapons, so you're actually gaining nothing. I would replace those two proficiencies with the martial Short Swords, which can represent proficiency with Elven long daggers like Sting.


4) Lore of the Eldar: The Ñoldor are accounted as the greatest of the Elves both in lore and smithcraft, so here I would add also an appropriate tool proficiency (jeweller’s tools or smith’s tools, at least). Would you agree?


5) Against the Unseen: Here, I would simply change the wording since there are no "Fear tests" in AiME, so probably you could use my description: "High Elves have advantage on saving throws against being frightened, and are considered to succeed automatically at any saving throw against being frightened by an undead creature". You're free to drop the first part if you think it's too strong, if you like (I've simply kept the parallelism with D&D Elves: advantage against charmed condition, immunity to magical paralysis --> advantage against frightened condition, immunity to fear from undead creatures).


6) Spear of the Last Alliance: very powerful! In comparison with other Heirlooms from Player's Handbook, this one gives a greater bonus to attack and damage rolls, so I'm inclined to consider it a little overpowered (also as a side note, a specification is required to know if you round up or round down the proficiency bonus to determine the final bonus you get).


7) Lesser Ring: as it is, it simply can't work. Don't forget that players are trading an Ability score increase (+2 to one Ability or +1 to two) for this Heirloom: so why would I trade a +2 increase without drawbacks from normal Character Improvement for a +1 increase AND a Shadow point??
If you're accepting a permanent Shadow point, the Ability score increase should surpass the increase you would get from a normal Character Improvement.
I would change as follows: "As long as you wield the Lesser Ring, it gives you a +2 bonus to one Ability score of your choice, and a +1 bonus to another. Additionally, you also gain 1 permanent Shadow point.”
It seems a decent trade-off to make it more attractive to players.


8) I like a lot how you adapted the Cultural Virtues. Especially Might of the Firsborn, it's like Legendary Resistance of some creatures from D&D Monster Manual, although you need to clarify if you have to decide to use this ability before or after you rolled the saving throw, and before or after you know if you have failed.
Finally, I would add a +1 increase to Charisma to Beauty of the Stars, it seems thematically appropriate.

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ThrorII
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Re: Converting High Elves of Rivendell

Post by ThrorII » Tue May 16, 2017 5:02 am

Michebugio wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 12:54 pm

Nice writeup, ThrorII! We've made very similar versions, what do you think of mine?

Also, I have some observations:


1) Ability scores increase: as you may have noticed, we both kept a total +4 bonus, but my version sacrifices 1 point of Dexterity for Charisma, compared to yours. I saw fit a Charisma increase, since the Noldor are described as "the proudest of the Elves"; in the words of the Sindar, they came to Middle-earth because "they needed room to quarrel in".
Also, compare with their TOR counterpart: there, they are skilled singers (Song is their favoured skill) and less athletic (1 point less in Athletics), being (probably) less accustomed to living in forests and in general less nimble and elusive than their Mirkwood cousins.

Would that be enough to give them one less point in Dexterity and one bonus in Charisma? I'm eager to hear your reasoning on this.
First, Thank you!!

Much as the Elves of Mirkwood are based on 5e Wood-elves, I based Elves of Rivendell on 5e High-elves. 5e high elves get +2 dex and +1 int. I added the +1 wis as well, because otherwise, on average, Wood-elves would be wiser than High-elves, which didn't feel right. Also, Dunedain also get a bonus to Wisdom. You can lower dex by 1 and increase cha by +1 if you wish, it is thematic, but changes the AiMe/5e balance.
Michebugio wrote: 2) Night Vision: for the sake of balance, I decided to drop this ability to make room for Against the Unseen, but I see that you've kept this from Mirkwood Elves. But Rivendell Elves don't live in thick forests, or undeground, so maybe their eyes are less accustomed to dim light. In any case, I failed to find any reference to this particular ability referred to the Noldorin, so as a matter of fact I'm ignorant on this aspect.
All elves have good sight at night. Remember Gildor Inglorion and his company walked without lights in the night of the Shire. Elves were born before the rising of the sun, and lived under the stars.
Michebugio wrote: 3) The Tools of War: as I pointed out also in another topic, proficiency in daggers and spears do not count as a benefit, since every class is already proficient with simple weapons, so you're actually gaining nothing. I would replace those two proficiencies with the martial Short Swords, which can represent proficiency with Elven long daggers like Sting.
I kept it as close to AiMe as possible.
Michebugio wrote: 4) Lore of the Eldar: The Ñoldor are accounted as the greatest of the Elves both in lore and smithcraft, so here I would add also an appropriate tool proficiency (jeweller’s tools or smith’s tools, at least). Would you agree?
Upon review, I agree.
Michebugio wrote: 5) Against the Unseen: Here, I would simply change the wording since there are no "Fear tests" in AiME, so probably you could use my description: "High Elves have advantage on saving throws against being frightened, and are considered to succeed automatically at any saving throw against being frightened by an undead creature". You're free to drop the first part if you think it's too strong, if you like (I've simply kept the parallelism with D&D Elves: advantage against charmed condition, immunity to magical paralysis --> advantage against frightened condition, immunity to fear from undead creatures).
Yeah, I pretty much cut-and-paste it from TOR. I'd just keep your 2nd suggestion, it to 'considered to succeed automatically at any saving throw against being frightened by an undead creature'.
Michebugio wrote: 6) Spear of the Last Alliance: very powerful! In comparison with other Heirlooms from Player's Handbook, this one gives a greater bonus to attack and damage rolls, so I'm inclined to consider it a little overpowered (also as a side note, a specification is required to know if you round up or round down the proficiency bonus to determine the final bonus you get).
I'd round down (so, +1 from level 1 to 8, +2 from level 9 to 16, and +3 from level 17+). It is no more powerful than many Legendary Weapons (and less powerful than many). It is a Noldorin weapon, after all.
Michebugio wrote: 7) Lesser Ring: as it is, it simply can't work. Don't forget that players are trading an Ability score increase (+2 to one Ability or +1 to two) for this Heirloom: so why would I trade a +2 increase without drawbacks from normal Character Improvement for a +1 increase AND a Shadow point??
If you're accepting a permanent Shadow point, the Ability score increase should surpass the increase you would get from a normal Character Improvement.
I would change as follows: "As long as you wield the Lesser Ring, it gives you a +2 bonus to one Ability score of your choice, and a +1 bonus to another. Additionally, you also gain 1 permanent Shadow point.”
It seems a decent trade-off to make it more attractive to players.
Yeah, I'd change it to a straight Wondrous Artefact, with one Blessing to the skill Proficiency of the player's choice.
Michebugio wrote: 8) I like a lot how you adapted the Cultural Virtues. Especially Might of the Firsborn, it's like Legendary Resistance of some creatures from D&D Monster Manual, although you need to clarify if you have to decide to use this ability before or after you rolled the saving throw, and before or after you know if you have failed.
I agree.
Michebugio wrote: Finally, I would add a +1 increase to Charisma to Beauty of the Stars, it seems thematically appropriate.
I think that is unnecessary. They already get advantage, which is effectively a +5.

Some changes made to the google doc.

Michebugio
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Re: Converting High Elves of Rivendell

Post by Michebugio » Tue May 16, 2017 9:32 am

ThrorII wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 5:02 am
Much as the Elves of Mirkwood are based on 5e Wood-elves, I based Elves of Rivendell on 5e High-elves. 5e high elves get +2 dex and +1 int. I added the +1 wis as well, because otherwise, on average, Wood-elves would be wiser than High-elves, which didn't feel right. Also, Dunedain also get a bonus to Wisdom. You can lower dex by 1 and increase cha by +1 if you wish, it is thematic, but changes the AiMe/5e balance.
Fair enough, I guess: it is in line with the "Race/Subrace" mechanic of 5e. Also, in TOR the High Elves of Rivendell do not have Inspire or Persuade, so maybe a Charisma bonus is not as appropriate as I initially thought.
All elves have good sight at night. Remember Gildor Inglorion and his company walked without lights in the night of the Shire. Elves were born before the rising of the sun, and lived under the stars.
That's a good explanation, thanks. Night Vision must be, then!
I kept it as close to AiMe as possible.
Yeah, but still a flawed original design need not to remain flawed in homebrew material. ;)
Yeah, I pretty much cut-and-paste it from TOR. I'd just keep your 2nd suggestion, it to 'considered to succeed automatically at any saving throw against being frightened by an undead creature'.
Given that we are letting them keep Night Vision, I guess it's fair to let them only be immune to frightened condition from undead, instead of also giving them advantage against everything that causes fear.
Yeah, I'd change it to a straight Wondrous Artefact, with one Blessing to the skill Proficiency of the player's choice.
Hmmm, I don't think that's a good idea. First of all, it's the very same as Dùnedain's Heirloom of Elder Days, and having two identical Cultural Heirlooms is a bit meh. Second, you're also getting a Shadow point, so it's definitely worse than Heirloom of Elder Days.
What if it's instead a +2 to one Ability score and as a plus it raises the maximum to 22? At the price of 1 permanent Shadow point, as usual.

MrUkpyr
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Re: Converting High Elves of Rivendell

Post by MrUkpyr » Tue May 16, 2017 9:23 pm

ThrorII wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 5:57 am
Here is my take (v2)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6Lla ... XZXek5xLTQ
Hello everyone,

Only recently started running the game, but one of my players wanted to be from Rivendell. Have to say, I like these versions of the Rivendell Elf quite a bit more then my "modified Mirkwood elf" that I created. I'm pretty sure my player will like it more as well.

One thing that caught my eye:
=== === === ===
"Artificer of Eregion

Many eyes were turned to Elrond in fear and wonder as he told of the Elven-smiths of Eregion and their friendship with Moria, and their eagerness for knowledge.

Prerequisite: You must be 8th level to take this Virtue.

You are studying the ancient craft of the Elven-smiths of Eregion, the greatest craftsmen of your kin. You learn to Evaluate Treasure when you first select this virtue. You may later master the secret of how to Enchant Weapons as your undertaking during a Fellowship phase; finally, you discover how to Create Wondrous Items as another undertaking during a later Fellowship phase."
=== === === ===

The one change I would make is that this can be taken at 4th level, BUT you could not spend a Fellowship phase to learn Enchant Weapons until you reached 6th level, and would have to wait until 8th level to learn Create Wondrous Items

Thoughts?

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ThrorII
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Re: Converting High Elves of Rivendell

Post by ThrorII » Wed May 17, 2017 11:39 pm

MrUkpyr wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 9:23 pm

Thoughts?
You can do whatever you want, it is your game!!

RE: Evaluate Treasure: Personally, I try to keep in the same vein as the official books. In those (and TOR) expanded Virtue abilities are available at future undertakings, with no further level limits. Hence how I wrote it.

Also, a master scholar can get Work of Elder Days at 3rd level. Giving the Evaluate Treasure at 4th means that a High Elf treads on a scholar ability almost immediately. This gives the Elf too much power in my opinion.

By the By, v3a is now on the google drive. I've again modified the Lesser Ring Cultural Heirloom. Now it gives a straight +2 to one ability score of your choice, and increases the maximum for that same ability score by 2 as well (so max ability score of 22 normally, unless you're a slayer and you choose the Lesser ring to affect Strength or Con (in that case 26!!). The Shadow point is still kept, as that was part of the TOR write up.

v3a
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Llaf ... sp=sharing
Last edited by ThrorII on Thu May 18, 2017 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

MrUkpyr
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Re: Converting High Elves of Rivendell

Post by MrUkpyr » Thu May 18, 2017 3:49 am

ThrorII wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 11:39 pm
MrUkpyr wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 9:23 pm

Thoughts?
RE: Evaluate Treasure: Personally, I try to keep in the same vein as the official books. In those (and TOR) expanded Virtue abilities are available at future undertakings, with no further level limits. Hence how I wrote it.

Also, a master scholar can get Work of Elder Days at 3rd level. Giving the Evaluate Treasure at 4th means that a High Elf treads on a scholar ability almost immediately. This gives the Elf too much power in my opinion./quote]

HMMM - the last is a good point. And while the norm is that the expanding of Virtues - I would prefer making these a bit more accessable - perhaps 6th then 8th _ fellowship phase.

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Robin Smallburrow
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Re: Converting High Elves of Rivendell

Post by Robin Smallburrow » Thu May 18, 2017 10:32 am

This is good, but where are the special balancing rules (skill marking etc.) that were in TOR for the High Elves?
I thoght that these were important and should not be left out of any conversion...

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