On Slayers and Warriors

The place for discussion of Cubicle 7 and Sophisticated Games' "Adventures in Middle-earth" OGL setting.
BookBarbarian
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On Slayers and Warriors

Post by BookBarbarian » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:48 pm

I noticed something while reading through my copy of the PDF today.

With Foehammer Slayers able to add their full Dex mod to Heavy armor, a Foheammer with Max Dex, heavy Mail, and a Greatshield could have an AC of 25.

Paired with the fact that a Weaponmaster Warrior with the Great Weapon Fighting style has advantage on all attacks against a foe it's size or smaller leads to an interesting conclusion:

If I want to play a sword and board character I'm likely to go Slayer. If I want to play a great weapon character I'm likely to go Warrior. This is not necessarily a problem, it's just counter to what I expected.

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Morgoth
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Re: On Slayers and Warriors

Post by Morgoth » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:34 am

I'm not sure what I think of Foehammer yet. At first glance it seems overpowered, but perhaps that judgement is too hasty. It certainly seems very strong. I almost think that it should increase your maximum dex by two or so (so you could use up to +4 dex bonus in medium armor, or up to +2 bonus in heavy armor).

For that matter, it seems like great shields are a pretty powerful too. I don't see much of a reason to use normal shields unless you're a hobbit or unless being sneaky is very very important to you.
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skywalker
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Re: On Slayers and Warriors

Post by skywalker » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:48 am

Morgoth wrote:For that matter, it seems like great shields are a pretty powerful too. I don't see much of a reason to use normal shields unless you're a hobbit or unless being sneaky is very very important to you.
You need proficiency in Shields (Slayers, Wardens and Warriors), Str13, Med+ Size, and be prepared to take a disadvantage on Stealth rolls. They are good but effectively they just replace the heaviest armours which are no longer available. I personally really like seeing shields given a more accurate defence bonus.
"There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. You certainly usually find something if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after." - Thorin Oakenshield

BookBarbarian
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Re: On Slayers and Warriors

Post by BookBarbarian » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:50 am

With the 18 AC option (plate) and the 15 +2 Dex AC option (half-plate) not being available in AiM, I think the Great Shield is fairly balanced. Getting it and Heavy Chain and Maxing Dex takes considerable investment anyway.

If anything is overpowered it's Great Weaponmasters having advantage on all attacks on Medium (Small if Hobbit) or smaller foes. That comes online at Level 3! It's basically reckless attack for most of the enemies you'll encounter without any drawbacks.

Foehammer encourages playing a different style of Barbarian. One that wants both a high strength and a high dex. I think that's pretty cool.

Steelwind
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Re: On Slayers and Warriors

Post by Steelwind » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:20 am

BookBarbarian wrote:If I want to play a sword and board character I'm likely to go Slayer. If I want to play a great weapon character I'm likely to go Warrior. This is not necessarily a problem, it's just counter to what I expected.
One important thing to note, taking the Protection style 3rd level option is currently the only way in 5E to use a shield as an offensive weapon and get damaging shield bash as a bonus attack. Even the Shield Master feat from the PHB doesnt give that (it gives a free shove attempt instead). So playing a sword and shield warrior is still a very attractive option.

Also, I am in agreement with others who feel the Great Weapon Fighting level 3 ability is overpowered. Advantage is too big a deal to give it out on 75+% of all attacks a character will make. And the Defense option is underpowered. All the rest of the advanced fighting style options are about perfect though.

CapnZapp
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Re: On Slayers and Warriors

Post by CapnZapp » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:29 am

BookBarbarian wrote:If anything is overpowered it's Great Weaponmasters having advantage on all attacks on Medium (Small if Hobbit) or smaller foes. That comes online at Level 3! It's basically reckless attack for most of the enemies you'll encounter without any drawbacks.
Sure it's powerful, but I don't think it's more overpowered than the D&D Barbarian. (You might think the Barbarian is overpowered, but that's another discussion!)

Remember that Great Weaponmasters won't have effectively double hit points (like Totem Barbs get).

So: no disadvantaged defense but "only" normal hit points. Sounds about equal to me :)

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Majestic
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Re: On Slayers and Warriors

Post by Majestic » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:36 pm

CapnZapp wrote:
BookBarbarian wrote:If anything is overpowered it's Great Weaponmasters having advantage on all attacks on Medium (Small if Hobbit) or smaller foes. That comes online at Level 3! It's basically reckless attack for most of the enemies you'll encounter without any drawbacks.
Sure it's powerful, but I don't think it's more overpowered than the D&D Barbarian. (You might think the Barbarian is overpowered, but that's another discussion!)

Remember that Great Weaponmasters won't have effectively double hit points (like Totem Barbs get).

So: no disadvantaged defense but "only" normal hit points. Sounds about equal to me :)
Nor is the Great Weapon Fighter halving 95%+ of all damage taken, as the Barbarian will do.
Adventure Summaries for my long-running group (currently playing through The Darkening of Mirkwood/Mirkwood Campaign), and the Tale of Years for a second, lower-level group (in the same campaign).

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skywalker
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Re: On Slayers and Warriors

Post by skywalker » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:40 pm

Looking at the other options for the Weapon Master, they all have a cost for an approximately +2 bonus to hit. Archery requires an action to aim, duelling loses the +2 damage, and two weapon fighting loses the extra attack.

I would personally look to add the same cost as Reckless Attack, which is that all attacks against the PC get advantage until the end of the round.
"There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. You certainly usually find something if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after." - Thorin Oakenshield

BookBarbarian
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Re: On Slayers and Warriors

Post by BookBarbarian » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:24 pm

Steelwind wrote:One important thing to note, taking the Protection style 3rd level option is currently the only way in 5E to use a shield as an offensive weapon and get damaging shield bash as a bonus attack. Even the Shield Master feat from the PHB doesnt give that (it gives a free shove attempt instead). So playing a sword and shield warrior is still a very attractive option.
That is true and it is attractive, but the Foehammer get's free unarmed strikes (which do not have to be made with an free hand, but can be any part of the body) when you miss with your weapon. In fact it doesn't even say it takes your bonus action. I'd take those over the Sword and Board Weaponmaster's shield bash.

Then again, I just really like flavor of the Foehammer. Go into a battle-fury, wade in to a group of enemies with your high AC, smash things with your weapon of choice, if you miss throw a headbutt or a kick. If you want, choose to shatter your weapon for a guaranteed crit. Even without a weapon your fists do 1d4 + str damage and crit on a 19. There's something very Turin Turambar/Helm Hammerhand like about it.

BookBarbarian
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Re: On Slayers and Warriors

Post by BookBarbarian » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:36 pm

Oh and I just realized. With advantage on strength checks Slayers will make great grapplers which gives Hoehammers something else to do after choosing to break their sword on a free crit. I'll have to pick up Athletics Expertise with my Forhammer Slayer.

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