Who can use the herbs?

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mats77
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Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:25 am

Who can use the herbs?

Post by mats77 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:50 pm

Who can use the herbs in the way described in the Player's Guide on p154-155? Is their usage considered common knowledge?

My guess is any player-hero, not only Scholars, right? (Although Scholars can use them in another, more effective way.)

Otaku-sempai
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Location: Lackawanna, NY

Re: Who can use the herbs?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:02 pm

I would guess that anyone with proficiency in Medicine can use herbs, though they might not have specialized knowledge of all of the uses of particularly rare herbs such as Athelas that they might possess with the Herb-lore trait. That doesn't necessarily give them the ability to prepare herbs in a raw state as though they possessed the trait Herb-lore and proficiency with an Herbalism Kit.

An Intelligence (Nature) check might help identify an herb, while the trait Herb-lore might give you advantage on your roll.

To treat a patient with herbs, you might make a Wisdom (Medicine) check, while proficiency with an Herbalism Kit would allow you to add your proficiency bonus. A Master Healer with the discovery Healing Herbs has additional secret lore in rare herbs.
Herbalism Kit. This kit contains a variety of instruments such as clippers, mortar and pestle, and pouches and vials used by herbalists to create remedies and potions. Proficiency with this kit lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to identify or apply herbs. Also, proficiency with this kit is required to create antitoxin and potions of healing*.
* I'm not sure how much of that last line should apply to AiMe.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

mats77
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:25 am

Re: Who can use the herbs?

Post by mats77 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:45 am

Thanks a lot Otaku-sempai for your input! :)

However, I am not super clear on all details, still. But the picture is getting clearer.

This is the information I have collected so far:

Healer's kit
  • Defined in DnD 5e rules.
  • For stabilizing a creature.
  • 10 uses
  • Overlaps with the Medicine skill, for the stabilizing purposes.
Herbalism kit
  • Defined in DnD 5e rules.
  • Can add proficiency bonus if proficient in this kit when trying to find or apply herbs. So if e.g. the Survival skill is used to find herbs, the player-hero can add his/her proficieny to that search (if he/she has this kit and is proficient in it). However, if the same player-hero happen to also be proficient in the Survival skill, then this kit is redundant (for the purpose of searching for herbs). Same principle goes for applying herbs (in the basic ways described in PG p154-155) using e.g. the Medicine skill.
  • This kit does not include any herbs, just tools.
  • Unlimited use.
  • Costs 5gp in DnD 5e, so that would be 1sp in AiME. (Seems not in the Equipment list in the AiME PG, p153.)
  • Cannot use this kit if not proficient in it.
  • Can be used for other things (e.g. creating antitoxin).
Finding herbs
There seems to be many takes on finding herbs. Some examples of how LM's deals with this (that I have found while googling around):
  • Finding herbs only via Undertaking.
  • Finding more and rarer herbs via Undertaking, but still possible to find fewer and more common ones by other means.
  • Finding herbs by Survival skill (proficient or not) and applying by Medicine skill (proficient or not). Note: The Herbalism kit might help here (if proficient in it and not proficient in Survival, otherwise it's redundant).
Applying herbs
  • Applying the basic form of the herbs as described in the PG p154-155 seems to be open for any player-hero, probably using the Medicine skill. Note: The Herbalism kit might help here (if proficient in it and not proficient in Medicine, otherwise it's redundant).
  • Applying the advanced form of the herbs as described in the PG p67 is only available to the Scholar (Master Healer).
Hands of Healer
AiME, Scholar, PG p64. In the description of this feature it says "treating them with herbs". Seems like some kind of generic herbs that are always available for the Scholar.


I might be wrong in so many details here, so please correct me if you find faults! Thanks! :)

mats77
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:25 am

Re: Who can use the herbs?

Post by mats77 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:08 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:02 pm
Herbalism Kit. This kit contains a variety of instruments such as clippers, mortar and pestle, and pouches and vials used by herbalists to create remedies and potions. Proficiency with this kit lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to identify or apply herbs. Also, proficiency with this kit is required to create antitoxin and potions of healing*.
* I'm not sure how much of that last line should apply to AiMe.
I have been thinking about that sentence too. I am also ambivalent.

MrUkpyr
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 5:40 pm

Re: Who can use the herbs?

Post by MrUkpyr » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:35 am

Hello mats77,

I have a Scholar who also has the specialty of Herb-Lore, so I have had to do a lot with herbs and such. I've added my own comments below yours.

Also, I would recommend RichH's pdf Herbs and Healing. While designed for TOR, it works well with AiME with a few rule-based tweaks.

I would also point out that not everyone knows how to use herbs. I would say that only Scholars, people with the specialty Herb Lore, and people with the virtue Herbal Remedies would know enough to be able to use herbs in the wild, while anyone can purchase an herbal poultice or elixer in town.
mats77 wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:45 am
Thanks a lot Otaku-sempai for your input! :)
However, I am not super clear on all details, still. But the picture is getting clearer.
This is the information I have collected so far:

Healer's kit
  • Defined in DnD 5e rules.
  • For stabilizing a creature.
  • 10 uses
  • Overlaps with the Medicine skill, for the stabilizing purposes.
The Healer's Kit used by a Scholar would also include the common healing herbs needed to perform the 10+min "Hands of the Healer" skill.
It contains 10 uses of common healing herbs, which are simply common herbs vs the "specialty herbs" listed in the book (such as Athelas).
Herbalism kit
  • Defined in DnD 5e rules.
  • Can add proficiency bonus if proficient in this kit when trying to find or apply herbs. So if e.g. the Survival skill is used to find herbs, the player-hero can add his/her proficieny to that search (if he/she has this kit and is proficient in it). However, if the same player-hero happen to also be proficient in the Survival skill, then this kit is redundant (for the purpose of searching for herbs). Same principle goes for applying herbs (in the basic ways described in PG p154-155) using e.g. the Medicine skill.
  • This kit does not include any herbs, just tools.
  • Unlimited use.
  • Costs 5gp in DnD 5e, so that would be 1sp in AiME. (Seems not in the Equipment list in the AiME PG, p153.)
  • Cannot use this kit if not proficient in it.
  • Can be used for other things (e.g. creating antitoxin).
I have the Herbalism Kit contain room to store 10 sets of herbs.
You gain proficiency with the Herbalism Kit as part of the specialty "Herb Lore" and the virtue "Herbal Remedies". Or you can choose it as part of being a Scholar.
Finding herbs
There seems to be many takes on finding herbs. Some examples of how LM's deals with this (that I have found while googling around):
  • Finding herbs only via Undertaking.
  • Finding more and rarer herbs via Undertaking, but still possible to find fewer and more common ones by other means.
  • Finding herbs by Survival skill (proficient or not) and applying by Medicine skill (proficient or not). Note: The Herbalism kit might help here (if proficient in it and not proficient in Survival, otherwise it's redundant).
Referencing the foraging for food rules (5e DMG pg 111).
Only Scholars, people with the specialty Herb Lore, or people with the virtue Herbal Remedies can forage for herbs in the wild.

Others simply don't know what they are looking for, but for those without the specialty/virtue/scholar - I might allow a DC-20 Nature check to identify commonly known herbs, with another DC 15-20 Survival roll to forage for them.

In terms of amounts, I would say that those without the knowledge might (if allowed) find 1d4 doses of common herbs.

Those with the needful knowledge could find 1d6 doses of common herbs, or 1-2 doses of specialty herbs if that is what the pc is looking for. Thus, 1d6 doses of common herbs, but only 1-2 doses of Athelas.

Herbalism Kit gives user Advantage when foraging, as you have the correct tools for the collecting of the herbs. Not having the kit does NOT hurt you.

Herbs found during the Journey or Adventuring phase will last 5-10 days, while those found during an undertaking last for the duration of the next Journey and Adventuring phase.
Applying herbs
  • Applying the basic form of the herbs as described in the PG p154-155 seems to be open for any player-hero, probably using the Medicine skill. Note: The Herbalism kit might help here (if proficient in it and not proficient in Medicine, otherwise it's redundant).
  • Applying the advanced form of the herbs as described in the PG p67 is only available to the Scholar (Master Healer).
If a pc does not have herb-lore or Herbal Remedies, in order to use the specialty herbs from PG p154-155, I would say that before even making the Medicine skill check, they would first have to make a DC-20 Nature roll, and then would have to make a DC-20 Medicine check

If the PC has Herb Lore or Herbal Remedies, they would skip the nature check and only have to make a DC-15 Medicine check.
Hands of Healer
AiME, Scholar, PG p64. In the description of this feature it says "treating them with herbs". Seems like some kind of generic herbs that are always available for the Scholar.
I ruled that they are not "always available for the Scholar", but rather are the common herbs which are easy to find and do not require an undertaking to acquire.
I might be wrong in so many details here, so please correct me if you find faults! Thanks! :)
mats77, let me know if you have any questions.
MrUkpyr
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

Otaku-sempai
Posts: 3338
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 2:45 am
Location: Lackawanna, NY

Re: Who can use the herbs?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:04 am

mats77 wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:45 am
Thanks a lot Otaku-sempai for your input! :)

Herbalism kit
  • Defined in DnD 5e rules.
  • Can add proficiency bonus if proficient in this kit when trying to find or apply herbs. So if e.g. the Survival skill is used to find herbs, the player-hero can add his/her proficieny to that search (if he/she has this kit and is proficient in it). However, if the same player-hero happen to also be proficient in the Survival skill, then this kit is redundant (for the purpose of searching for herbs). Same principle goes for applying herbs (in the basic ways described in PG p154-155) using e.g. the Medicine skill.
  • This kit does not include any herbs, just tools.
  • Unlimited use.
  • Costs 5gp in DnD 5e, so that would be 1sp in AiME. (Seems not in the Equipment list in the AiME PG, p153.)
  • Cannot use this kit if not proficient in it.
  • Can be used for other things (e.g. creating antitoxin).
The Herbalism kit can be found on page 152 of the Player's Guide listed under Artisan's Tools. The base cost in AiMe is given as 5s. (The rule-of-thumb is that 1 gold piece in D&D 5e converts to 1 silver penny in AiMe, though that isn't consistent across the board and breaks down when discussing smaller coinage.)
MrUkpyr wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:35 am
I have the Herbalism Kit contain room to store 10 sets of herbs.
You gain proficiency with the Herbalism Kit as part of the specialty "Herb Lore" and the virtue "Herbal Remedies". Or you can choose it as part of being a Scholar.
Alternately, the default would be to carry packets of herbs in a separate pouch or similar container.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

MrUkpyr
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 5:40 pm

Re: Who can use the herbs?

Post by MrUkpyr » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:35 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:04 am
MUCH SNIPPAGE by MrUkpyr
MrUkpyr wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:35 am
I have the Herbalism Kit contain room to store 10 sets of herbs.
You gain proficiency with the Herbalism Kit as part of the specialty "Herb Lore" and the virtue "Herbal Remedies". Or you can choose it as part of being a Scholar.
Alternately, the default would be to carry packets of herbs in a separate pouch or similar container.
One could, but it never made sense that an herbalism kit wouldn't be able to store some herbs.

In RichH's Herbs and Healing he describes the "herbal kit" as having enough room to store sufficient herbs for 4 herbal remedies, but that seemed too few so I raised it to 10.

of course, YMEMV. (grin)
MrUkpyr
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

Otaku-sempai
Posts: 3338
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 2:45 am
Location: Lackawanna, NY

Re: Who can use the herbs?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:49 pm

You've developed the Herbalism kit, deluxe -- suggested M-e price: 20s.

Available in the lands of Faerûn through Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue. ;)

Image

Aurora's Price: 18 gp (assortment of common healing herbs included, up to 10 uses)
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

MrUkpyr
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 5:40 pm

Re: Who can use the herbs?

Post by MrUkpyr » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:00 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:49 pm
You've developed the Herbalism kit, deluxe -- suggested M-e price: 20s.

Available in the lands of Faerûn through Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue. ;)

Aurora's Price: 18 gp (assortment of common healing herbs included, up to 10 uses)
*laughs hard*
It does not surprise me that something this simple was already thought of. But there is one difference. I said the Herbalism Kit can *hold* 10 uses. I never said that it *came with* those 10 uses.
MrUkpyr
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

Otaku-sempai
Posts: 3338
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 2:45 am
Location: Lackawanna, NY

Re: Who can use the herbs?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:09 pm

MrUkpyr wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:00 pm
It does not surprise me that something this simple was already thought of. But there is one difference. I said the Herbalism Kit can *hold* 10 uses. I never said that it *came with* those 10 uses.
That would be Aurora's special offer. But in reality there is no such listing in Aurora's; I made it up out of your description. :lol: I couldn't help noticing that a PDF of Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue can be purchased through DriveThruRPG. My spouse and I share great affection and appreciation for our physical copy. It also serves as an amusing send-up of turn-of-the-century Sears, Roebuck and Co. catalogues.

Given that it only includes storage space for herbs--not the healing herbs themselves--maybe reduce the price to just 10s.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

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