Rivendell questions/errata/clarifications...

The place for discussion of Cubicle 7 and Sophisticated Games' "Adventures in Middle-earth" OGL setting.
Scarytincan
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Rivendell questions/errata/clarifications...

Post by Scarytincan » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:30 am

Had a few questions going through it, looking for clarification, but don't remember most now :lol: but will post as I remember. But to start :

The high elves proficiency in corruption saves : is this intended to stack with Scholar proficiency in wisdom saving throws?

Was it intentional that high elves don't get broadsword prof?

Is might of the firstborn intended to be strong enough to prevent the witch king/a dragon /sauron/etc from taking an action? Lesser foes I could see considering the after effect of that ability, but I feel like at least powerful foes should get a save, or everyone gets a high DC save or something...

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Rivendell questions/errata/clarifications...

Post by Otaku-sempai » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:56 am

Scarytincan wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:30 am
Is might of the firstborn intended to be strong enough to prevent the witch king/a dragon /sauron/etc from taking an action? Lesser foes I could see considering the after effect of that ability, but I feel like at least powerful foes should get a save, or everyone gets a high DC save or something...
From Rivendell for TOR:
Might of the Firstborn
…on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength.

By the power that is in them, Elf-lords can fight the most powerful among the servants of the Enemy…

Once per combat round, when an adversary spends 1 or more Hate points to activate a special ability, you may roll Valour against TN 10, plus the Attribute level of the adversary. On a successful roll, the effects of the special ability are cancelled, but the adversary does not spend the Hate points. If the roll was a great or extraordinary success, then the Hate points are cancelled too. If you fail the Valour roll, or you roll an [Eye of Sauron] (whether the roll failed or not), you lose 1 point of Hope and you cannot invoke this virtue again for the rest of the battle.
Based on my reading of the TOR version of Might of the First-born, I would say that it is meant to apply against servants as powerful as the Lord of the Nazgûl, a Balrog or a Dragon (though perhaps not Sauron himself).
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

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zedturtle
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Re: Rivendell questions/errata/clarifications...

Post by zedturtle » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:23 am

Scarytincan wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:30 am
The high elves proficiency in corruption saves : is this intended to stack with Scholar proficiency in wisdom saving throws?
Yep. The basic rule is that every High Elf will have three saving throw proficiencies... the two normal ones, plus Corruption (which is why it is broken out from Wisdom on the character sheet). So a High Elf scholar is proficient in all Wisdom saves, not just Corruption saves.
Jacob Rodgers, occasional nitwit.

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Scarytincan
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Re: Rivendell questions/errata/clarifications...

Post by Scarytincan » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:52 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:56 am
Scarytincan wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:30 am
Is might of the firstborn intended to be strong enough to prevent the witch king/a dragon /sauron/etc from taking an action? Lesser foes I could see considering the after effect of that ability, but I feel like at least powerful foes should get a save, or everyone gets a high DC save or something...
From Rivendell for TOR:
Might of the Firstborn
…on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength.

By the power that is in them, Elf-lords can fight the most powerful among the servants of the Enemy…

Once per combat round, when an adversary spends 1 or more Hate points to activate a special ability, you may roll Valour against TN 10, plus the Attribute level of the adversary. On a successful roll, the effects of the special ability are cancelled, but the adversary does not spend the Hate points. If the roll was a great or extraordinary success, then the Hate points are cancelled too. If you fail the Valour roll, or you roll an [Eye of Sauron] (whether the roll failed or not), you lose 1 point of Hope and you cannot invoke this virtue again for the rest of the battle.
Based on my reading of the TOR version of Might of the First-born, I would say that it is meant to apply against servants as powerful as the Lord of the Nazgûl, a Balrog or a Dragon (though perhaps not Sauron himself).
In TOR it seems to read differently from aime implying it is used against SPECIAL effects (tho I don't play tor/don't know if normal attacks are counted as special). If it were to just apply to special attacks but still allow an attack action would still seem a bit more ok imo but I feel like a regular noldor, powerful tho they may be, should not be able to completely shut down a dragon etc simply by passing his own shadow save after each automatic use...

Edit : I suppose being gated by requiring 2 HD helps balance it a bit, especially at low levels, tho at level 6 three rounds of suppressing such a foe still seems a bit strong...
zedturtle wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:23 am
Scarytincan wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:30 am
The high elves proficiency in corruption saves : is this intended to stack with Scholar proficiency in wisdom saving throws?
Yep. The basic rule is that every High Elf will have three saving throw proficiencies... the two normal ones, plus Corruption (which is why it is broken out from Wisdom on the character sheet). So a High Elf scholar is proficient in all Wisdom saves, not just Corruption saves.
Perhaps my starting point on this is the issue : do characters not add wisdom modifier / wis save proficiency to corruption checks? Looking at the pre gen characters in the PG seems to imply nothing is added and I've been letting my players have an easier time of things... though now that I go back to the shadow chapter, it does say "Wisdom saving throw" which brings me back to do they stack? As in would you double your proficiency bonus for a Scholar? Or is it intended to just be a source of proficiency for the rest of the classes to ensure a high elf always has prof in it?

BookBarbarian
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Re: Rivendell questions/errata/clarifications...

Post by BookBarbarian » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:07 pm

Typically in 5e you don't add proficiency twice to the same roll. There may be something that doubles it like Expertise, but not add it twice from two different sources.

For example, If my character is playing a Harp, and has the Proficiency in Musical Instrument, Harp, and Charisma (Performance) checks, and my LM asks me to make a Charisma (Performance) check, I would not be able to add my Proficiency bonus twice, even though I have it from two sources.

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zedturtle
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Re: Rivendell questions/errata/clarifications...

Post by zedturtle » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:28 pm

Yep. To try and explain it a different way... imagine a Venn diagram. There’s a big circle labeled “Wisdom saves”. Completely inside that circle is a smaller circle labeled “Corruption saves”. So every Corruption save is a Wisdom saving throw, but not every Wisdom save is a Corruption save.

Caranthiel is not proficient in Corruption saves and thus doesn’t have anything entered on her sheet for that. But she is proficient in Wisdom saves. So if I ask her to make a Wisdom save she will add her Proficiency Bonus and her Wisdom modifier to the roll. Doesn’t matter if it involves Shadow or not.

Cirmacar is not proficient in Wisdom saving throws but is proficient in Corruption saves. If I ask him to make a Wisdom saving throw, he might ask me if it risks a Shadow gain. If I say no, he adds only his Wisdom modifier. If I say yes (i.e. it is a Corruption save) he adds both his Wisdom modifier and his Proficiency Bonus to the roll.
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Scarytincan
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Re: Rivendell questions/errata/clarifications...

Post by Scarytincan » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:24 pm

zedturtle wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:28 pm
Yep. To try and explain it a different way... imagine a Venn diagram. There’s a big circle labeled “Wisdom saves”. Completely inside that circle is a smaller circle labeled “Corruption saves”. So every Corruption save is a Wisdom saving throw, but not every Wisdom save is a Corruption save.

Caranthiel is not proficient in Corruption saves and thus doesn’t have anything entered on her sheet for that. But she is proficient in Wisdom saves. So if I ask her to make a Wisdom save she will add her Proficiency Bonus and her Wisdom modifier to the roll. Doesn’t matter if it involves Shadow or not.

Cirmacar is not proficient in Wisdom saving throws but is proficient in Corruption saves. If I ask him to make a Wisdom saving throw, he might ask me if it risks a Shadow gain. If I say no, he adds only his Wisdom modifier. If I say yes (i.e. it is a Corruption save) he adds both his Wisdom modifier and his Proficiency Bonus to the roll.
So to sum up simply, a high elf Scholar only adds proficiency one time to corruption wisdom saves, correct?

BenTheFerg
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Re: Rivendell questions/errata/clarifications...

Post by BenTheFerg » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:03 am

A query on Might of the Firstborn.

It says
'spend two Hit Dice to prevent an enemy creature from taking an action on its turn'..... and later. ...

'you may not use Might of the Firstborn again until you take a short or long rest.'

You burn through 2 HD to use it and potentially get corrupted by Shadow. .... & can't use again until rested. .... thus not to be used lightly!

Thus does the use of the power then mean if a creature has used a power they need to recharge, it is now spent, although it failed? And the enemy has to recharge it's power?

The rule text is not clear on this.

Looks kewl though!

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zedturtle
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Re: Rivendell questions/errata/clarifications...

Post by zedturtle » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:31 am

Might of the Firstborn prevents the creature’s action from being taken. The question then becomes does the special ability require an action? If it’s listed under Actions in the statblock or says something like “The creature may use its action to...” then the ability requires an action to be used. Since the creature can’t take an action, the ability cannot be used. You only have to Recharge abilities after they are used.

Other special abilities that require only a bonus action or a reaction cannot be affected by Might of the Firstborn.
Jacob Rodgers, occasional nitwit.

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BenTheFerg
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Re: Rivendell questions/errata/clarifications...

Post by BenTheFerg » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:49 pm

Thanks

Thus...

The Wight-king's "Darker than the Darkness" (1/day) power.....it is an action for them to use it...... thus if you use Might of the Firstborn to stop it.... the Wight-king cannot now use it for a day?

Just checking! :)

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