We need to talk about the Slayer

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Michebugio
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We need to talk about the Slayer

Post by Michebugio » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:12 pm

After more than one year of playing (as a Loremaster), I have developed many concerns about the Slayer.
Not the class per se, since it’s an almost perfect transposition of the Barbarian from the highly playtested D&D rules. But its particular set of skills may give problems of balance to your parties, and here’s why.

One of my players is a Dwarf Foehammer Slayer with munchkin tendencies. Technically he is playing by the rules, but what I observed is that none of the battles feel right with him there, he gets barely to half hit points even in the toughest fight and if I want to make something that will put him in danger, it would be a monster that would obliterate the rest of the party.

Yes, because at 5th level he has 65 hit points, an incredible AC 20 (chain hauberk 16, +4 tower shield), and a more than decent Strength (16) to dish out an astonishing amount of damage, especially when using Reckless Attack.

While raging, he essentially doubles his hit points (he is resistant to all physical and poison damage) to a whopping 130 hp, together with an AC of 20 that is comparable to that of the most defensive Warrior (and at the next level, it will increase further by his Dexterity bonus tanks to Foehammer's Hooped and Hasped). He gets a nice +2 to damage (same as Warrior’s Dueling Combat Style), and advantage to Strength ability checks and saving throws (very useful to escape from Troll grapples and Spider webs).

There’s essentially almost nothing that he can’t shrug off. Just to give you an idea, he recently fought Tauler the Hunter during the Roadwarden’ Staff adventure in Mirkwood campaign, and he managed to defeat the legendary monster with little or no help from other party members!
He had some lucky rolls (a couple of critical hits, which by the way aren’t that infrequent when using Reckless Attack), but nothing especially against the odds. He just won, alone and at level 5, an encounter that is considered to be almost unwinnable by a party of 4!
He is simply too tanky. And if I simply raise the difficulty of combat encounters, well, he’ll have a harder time... but the other players will find combat way too dangerous to be truly enjoyable. The other players with combat capabilities (the Wanderer and the Warrior/Treasure Hunter) are already feeling much overshadowed when compared to such a beast.

So where’s the problem here? Well, there are some:

1) Damage types: as already mentioned in other topics, Barbarians in D&D have to deal with lots of damage types (fire, cold, lightning, acid, poison, necrotic, and radiant) that ignore the resistance given by their rage. That is not the case in AiME: the only other damage type that is decently frequent is poison, but that is not a concern for a Dwarf who is resistant to that as well. So, a Slayer is in practical terms resistant to ALL damage in AiME while raging;

2) Other attack types: the real weakness of Barbarians beyond non-physical damage, at least in D&D, are mind-influencing effects. Anything from charm, sleep, fear effects, up to hold person and dominate, they are the real bane of Barbarians. Throw in some Mind Flayers, Intellect Devourers, Succubi and such, and you've found the weak spot of these characters.
Once again, that is not the case in AiME: no mind effects except fear, and even in that case only from enemies that are far from frequent (Great Spiders, Secret Shadow, Mountain Trolls and the list pretty much end here, if we don't consider legendary, unique monsters);

3) Foehammer features and tower shields: this is where the designers of the game may have overlooked some critical aspects.
Normally, a Barbarian in D&D can reach an AC of 19 with no magical objects (plate armour 15, +2 Dex, +2 shield), which is a reasonable amount when paired with a superior life pool. In AiME, an Elf Foehammer with max Dexterity can reach an astonishing AC 25 (16 chain hauberk, +5 Dex, +4 tower shield)! This is nowhere near to what a Warrior could accomplish, and in D&D the advantage of Warriors over Barbarians to even out the rage benefits should be the proficiency with heavier armours (coupled with Second Wind, Combat Style and Action Surge).
The very existence of the tower shield (it is absent from D&D base ruleset) is one of the causes: it should compensate for the absence of higher base AC armours (and it is a brilliant solution in a setting where plate armour doesn't exist), but in fact it’s giving a notable tactical advantage to those classes that are proficient with shields, but not with heavy armours.
The other cause is the Foehammer design: limiting the privilege to giving proficiency with heavy armours (or at least, limiting the max Dexterity bonus applicable to +2, like Medium armours), would have probably been a better idea.

Considering all of this, I’ve developed some adjustments that have helped me overcome these problems (and that will help also other Loremasters who have the same issue).

A) Resistance from rage only applies to melee physical damage: I see the resistance from rage more as a “roll with the blows” thing than sheer toughness, and this also helps a lot keeping the Slayer wary of some kinds of enemies, especially goblin archers. Also, I’m considering letting some powerful enemies that deal melee physical damage (some legendary creatures like the Children of Shelob or the Werewolf, to name some) to ignore this resistance “for plot reasons”. The defeat of Tauler by this lonely dwarf didn’t feel heroic, it felt profoundly anticlimactic.

B) Mental effects: I’m adding much more mind effects, and Corruption rolls, originating from Journey events (especially in Mirkwood), and additional “magic” enemies that use unconventional attacks (resisted by Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma saving throws) and damage types (mainly necrotic from undead, but also cold/fire damage from environmental hazards).

C) Slayer and Foehammer proficiencies: I thought about taking away the proficiency with tower shields from the Slayer/Foehammer, but this may be avoided with multiclassing, even if you have to “sacrifice” a level for it (which is not much of a sacrifice, since a lot of juicy benefits come with the 1st level of Warrior). So the simplest solution was to state that a Slayer cannot use tower shields during a rage (which makes sense, since it represent eschewing protection in exchange for more prowess). Also, Hooped and Hasped now only let the Slayer add the full Dex modifier to Medium armours (besides ignoring Stealth disadvantage), not affecting heavy armours in any way.


With these adjustments, I think the overbearing power of the Slayer in this setting may be more in check.

Thoughts? Impressions?

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zedturtle
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Re: We need to talk about the Slayer

Post by zedturtle » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:31 pm

I want to hear more about the fight against Tauler... he’s got resistance to regular damage, superior mobility and can Paralyse and Frighten targets (the last one from range). Did those abilities come into play?
Jacob Rodgers, occasional nitwit.

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Gilrohir Arncelevon
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Re: We need to talk about the Slayer

Post by Gilrohir Arncelevon » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:42 pm

I haven't faced this problem - yet - but i suppose its only a matter of time.

I assume you have been careful to only allow the player to "fury" for 1 minute, ie 10 battle rounds? I usually impose exhaustion thereafter.

I would probably add one more means/method of "defanging" this character......in the interests of making sure the whole group enjoys the game.

I'd take a long hard look at the alternative encumbrance rules in D&D 5e players guide. Heavy mail and a tower shield is 90lbs of weight alone before adding weapons, etc. Having carried a 50lb pack in the military, i can tell you the dwarf (with 16 Str) would struggle to march for long, let alone fight! If you need to explain it to players, get them to read an account of the battle of Hattin during the crusades, in which Saladin's forces comprehensively defeated the crusaders. Most of the crusaders simply passed out due to the weight of their armor and the heat and lack of water. Wandering around in the summer season (or even on a warm spring or autumn day) in heavy mail with a shield is a non-starter in my book. I take the view heavy mail is something a player dons for battle.......so its only relevant if the players have time to prepare for a fight. For example i allowed my players to done "battle armor" for the fight at the crossings of celduin, but would make life very difficult if they think they can do a long journey wearing heavy mail and carrying a tower shield......they could put it on a mule, but they would then have to unpack and don it before a fight......which would rule it out for most fights which come around without much warning. Again, if you need to show them an example, during the two towers movie, legolas, gimli and aragorn don battle armor before the battle at Helms Deep. They don't wear it when they are travelling.......so they have to fight the uruks at Amon Hen in their travelling gear, which is leather jerkins, etc. That seems to me to be realistic. Again, Aragorn dons battle armor for the final battle at the Black Gate.


I also think its worth noting the point about tower shields being extremely unwieldy (see the description in the AiMe players guide). A dwarf is only 4-5 feet tall, so I would have the shield cause the dwarf all sorts of problems so that in the end, he decides its too much of a disadvantage in the rest of the game to carry it just for the few fights.

I would probably try those methods of gentle persuasion first before altering the rules, as this just breeds arguments with players in my experience.

However, others may have better ideas

BookBarbarian
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Re: We need to talk about the Slayer

Post by BookBarbarian » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:53 pm

zedturtle wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:31 pm
I want to hear more about the fight against Tauler... he’s got resistance to regular damage, superior mobility and can Paralyse and Frighten targets (the last one from range). Did those abilities come into play?
I'd like to know this too.

Also, How many combats between long rests are you having? If a Slayer runs out of Battle-Furys things get different pretty quick. And the LMG provides the LM all they need to ensure that Long Rests aren't happening too often.

If you find you do need to houserule some things I would suggest giving monsters abilities like the Hold Person spell and Sleep spell. Or anything that calls for an Intelligence save. Which my 5e Barbarians lived in mortal fear of.

Michebugio
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Re: We need to talk about the Slayer

Post by Michebugio » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:01 am

zedturtle wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:31 pm
I want to hear more about the fight against Tauler... he’s got resistance to regular damage, superior mobility and can Paralyse and Frighten targets (the last one from range). Did those abilities come into play?
Alright, I don’t recall it perfectly but I’ll try to describe it as faithfully as possible.
Premise: the Dwarf Slayer is wielding a self-crafted dwarf-forged axe (+1 to hit and damage rolls) and a dwarf-wrought hauberk (negates extra critical damage), but the axe doesn’t count as “magical” so Tauler is resistant to every damage he deals. The Fellowship had 3 combat encounters after their previous long rest, and the Dwarf Slayer had one rage left.

Before initiative: the Treasure Hunter enters alone the Millfort, while the other Companions (a Scholar, a Wanderer and the Dwarf Slayer) wait at some distance; he retrieves the Roadwarden’s staff, but gets ambushed by Tauler. Tauler hits him with its beak during the surprise round and paralyses him.

Round 1: the players decide that while the Slayer and the Wanderer distract Tauler, the Scholar brings the paralyzed Treasure Hunter to safety. The Wanderer charges the monster but but only deals 8 damage (attacks twice, misses once), reduced to 4. The Dwarf Slayer enters rage and wants to make a “shield charge”, so I rule that only for this round he can make an attack with his tower shield (1d6, light) as a bonus action. He uses Reckless Attack to roll with advantage and attacks twice with his axe (+7 to hit) and once with the shield (+6 to hit): one crit with the axe, and two normal hits! Total damage dealt: 40-something (very good damage rolls), reduced to 20 by Tauler’s resistance.
Tauler must choose between using its Beak, its Stomp or Terrorise. Since the Slayer gives him advantage, Tauler counterattacks the Dwarf with its beak, hitting him and dealing 12 damage reduced to 6 by the Dwarf’s rage. The Dwarf rolls against poison’s DC 16 (+7, with advantage), and easily succeeds. Total Damage dealt to Tauler so far: 24 (20 by the Slayer, 4 by others). Total damage dealt to the Dwarf Slayer so far: 6.

Round 2: The Scholar drags the incapacitated Treasure Hunter as far from the fight as he can. The Wanderer attacks twice, misses once, another 9 damage reduced to 4 by Tauler. The Dwarf Slayer once again attacks using Reckless Attack, easily hits twice (he has +7 to hit Tauler’s AC 17, rolls with advantage), deals 20-something damage reduced to 10. Tauler counterattacks the Dwarf using its Stomp, rolls with advantage: a critical hit! But the dwarf-wrought hauberk negates the extra damage, so the Dwarf Slayer “only” gets hit for 26 damage, reduced to 13. The Dwarf rolls a Strength saving throw DC 16 to avoid getting Prone, and easily passes (+6 bonus, rolls with advantage thanks to the rage). Total Damage dealt to Tauler so far: 38 (30 by the Slayer, 8 by others). Total damage dealt to the Dwarf Slayer so far: 19.

Round 3: The Scholar checks the Treasure Hunter conditions: he can’t treat him right now, but at least he’s not in danger, so he decides to join the fight in the next round. The Wanderer attacks twice, misses twice! Things are getting rough for the players. The Dwarf Slayer, a bit scared by Tauler’s critical in the previous round, doesn’t use Reckless Attack this round, so he attacks twice and misses once. Still, he deals 12 damage, reduced to 6. Tauler is annoyed by these puny creatures, so he uses Terrorise: the Wanderer fails the saving throw, the Scholar succeeds and the Dwarf Slayer uses his Inspiration to succeed as well. Total Damage dealt to Tauler so far: 44 (36 by the Slayer, 8 by others). Total damage dealt to the Dwarf Slayer so far: 19.

Round 4: The Scholar shoots an arrow to Tauler and misses. The Wanderer is frightened, so he can’t attack. The Dwarf Slayer, determined to turn the tides, once again uses Reckless Attack and hits twice: one is another critical hit! He deals a total of about 30 damage, reduced to 15. Tauler counterattacks with its Beak, hits the Dwarf and deals 6 damage (12, resisted). Once again, the Dwarf easily passes the poison saving throw. Total Damage dealt to Tauler so far: 59 (51 by the Slayer, 8 by others). Total damage dealt to the Dwarf Slayer so far: 25.

Round 5: The Scholar shoots another arrow to Tauler and misses again. The Wanderer recovers from fear and attacks, hitting once: another 9 damage, reduced to 4. The Dwarf Slayer keeps using Reckless Attack, easily hits twice (he only needs a 10 rolling with advantage), deals 20-something damage, reduced to 10. Tauler uses Stomp, hits the Dwarf and deals 13 damage (26, halved by rage’s resistance). The Dwarf passes the Strength saving throw to avoid getting Prone, rolling with advantage. Total Damage dealt to Tauler so far: 73 (61 by the Slayer, 12 by others). Total damage dealt to the Dwarf Slayer so far: 38.

Round 6: The Scholar, feeling a bit useless in this combat, proposes to heal the Slayer, but the Slayer feels confident and tells him to save his healing abilities for others. So the Scholar shoots an arrow… and misses. The Wanderer attacks twice, hits once, rolls very low damage (6 or 7, reduced to 3). The Dwarf Slayer attacks normally, hits once, deals 10 damage reduced to 5. At this point, Tauler is below 60 hit points, so he should run! I decide, however, that he keeps attacking: everybody is fine except the Treasure Hunter and the Slayer, so I want to scare them off. Tauler uses its Beak but misses (+9 to hit vs. AC 21), but since I roll secretly, I decide that he hits anyway. 12 damage reduced to 6, the Dwarf once again passes the poison saving throw (damn Dwarves!). Total Damage dealt to Tauler so far: 81 (66 by the Slayer, 15 by others). Total damage dealt to the Dwarf Slayer so far: 44.

Round 7: The Scholar shoots another arrow and hits… rolling 4 damage, reduced to 2. The Wanderer decides to do something very brave or very foolish: he wants to climb up one of Tauler’s legs, and try to stab the monster’s abdomen. He rolls Athletics using Inspiration and succeeds, but he receive an opportunity attack from Tauler’s Stomp: hit, 26 damage (ouch!). But at least he passes the Strength saving throw, and I rule that in the next turn he will roll with advantage. The Dwarf Slayer presses the offensive and attacks using Reckless Attack, hits twice, for a total of another 20-something damage, reduced to 10. Tauler counterattacks using Stomp, hits for the usual 13 damage (halved from 26). Total Damage dealt to Tauler so far: 93 (76 by the Slayer, 17 by others). Total damage dealt to the Dwarf Slayer so far: 57.

Round 8: The Slayer yells to the others to start running for their lives: he wants to make a last stand against the monster. The Scholar starts running, and the Wanderer attempts his dangerous maneuver: he rolls poorly, even with advantage, and hits only once for a total of 8 damage reduced to 4. The Slayer attacks twice without using Reckless Attack: he hits twice, and rolls well with the damage dices. He deals about 26 damage, reduced to 13 by Tauler. Tauler counterattacks with the Stomp and misses again: I decide not to fake this one, since Tauler hit every round so far and the Dwarf Slayer had to be awarded for not using Reckless Attack at least once. Total Damage dealt to Tauler so far: 110 (89 by the Slayer, 21 by others). Total damage dealt to the Dwarf Slayer so far: 57.

Round 9: The Wanderer jumps off Tauler and starts running. One round before the rage ends: the Slayer goes all in and he attacks twice using Reckless Attack: he hits twice again! He deals another 25 damage, reduced to 12 by Tauler. Tauler counterattacks with the Beak, hits for 6 damage, the Dwarf passes the poison saving throw (at this point, I am starting to think that Dwarves’s ale is made of cyanide). Total Damage dealt to Tauler so far: 122 (101 by the Slayer, 21 by others). Total damage dealt to the Dwarf Slayer so far: 63.

Round 10: The Wanderer decides to helps his fellow Slayer who is facing death and shoots an arrow to Tauler, dealing 7 damage reduced to 3. The Slayer stays true to his death wish and instead of running away, he attacks with Reckless Attack, this time hitting only once! He still deals deals 11 damage, reduced to 5 by Tauler.
At this point, Tauler only has 7 hit points remaining! So I decide that I want to keep him for further encounters. Tauler runs away, screaming in pain.

FINAL COMBAT STATS: Total Damage dealt to Tauler: 130 (106 by the Slayer, 24 by others). Total damage dealt to the Dwarf Slayer: 63.


So, with just a little help from his friends, a 5th-level Dwarf Slayer has almost single-handedly defeated a CR 9 monster.

Gilrohir Arncelevon
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Re: We need to talk about the Slayer

Post by Gilrohir Arncelevon » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:30 pm

That's a great write up. I accept that a few of the numbers are possibly out as i suspect you only have the write down of hp on a combat pad, so any "analysis" is at best rough, but I think the dwarf got lucky.

The dwarf hit 17 times and got a critical - not far off average, but still above average.

The dwarf did above average damage in rounds 1, 3, 4, 8 and 9. He never did below average damage.

Tauler never did above average damage.

On average if Tauler had used his beak 6 times, even with the dwarfs advantage on poison saves and a con of 16, the dwarf should have failed at least once (he has a 16% chance of failing with two dice each time).

Strictly a CR 9 adversary should be an "epic" challege for a 6th level party, so with some clearly above average rolling by the dwarf, its possible to see how a 5th level party managed to drive off Tauler. Lets be honest, if Tauler had won initiative in round 11 it would likely all have been over for the dwarf......he's lucky Tauler decided to live to fight another day........and Tauler won't make the mistake of fighting alone against this dwarf again.....expect a number of great spiders to accompany the wiley son of Shelob next time he meets the dwarf :lol:

Gilrohir Arncelevon
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Re: We need to talk about the Slayer

Post by Gilrohir Arncelevon » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:53 pm

One final thought - Tauler is smart (int 14) and has probably fought dwarves before, so he would know they are resistant to his poison......if he stomped every time, the dwarf would have died in round 6........

Also, if Tauler had retreated up the walls of the millfort for a round to "rethink his strategy" the Dwarf's fury would have ended (he has to attack or take damage every round for it to run the full minute). The dwarf only moves 25 ft and Tauler moves 40 ft or climbs 20 ft.
Last edited by Gilrohir Arncelevon on Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wanton
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Re: We need to talk about the Slayer

Post by Wanton » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:58 pm

I agree, very nice right up.

I agree the rolls seem to favor the players (specifically the dwarf), and if a few rolls had gone against the players early it could have change the battle. And the rest of your players had some less favorable roles. Also, because the the dwarfs resistance to poison, he has some advantage against the spider specifically.

I wonder if battled again (as if new) would the players fare as well? Two, the help provide by the others was invaluable, I wouldn't for one second feel they didn't provide a lot of help.

Also, the dwarf is pretty well equipped, which certainly helped.

As a disclaimer.... I play in one of my groups as a Beorning slayer.... so I highly favor the class and probably approached the discussion skewed on the side of the slayer ... but to me that seems like a pretty fun battle to play and the element of danger seemed to be there. :ugeek:

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Anarfin
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Re: We need to talk about the Slayer

Post by Anarfin » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:25 pm

Michebugio wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:12 pm
3) Foehammer features and tower shields: this is where the designers of the game may have overlooked some critical aspects.
I agree, that proficiency in Tower Shields should be reserved for Warriors, not available for "skirmishers" like Slayers, Wanderers or Wardens (ie. classes with light/medium armor proficiency).
Limiting "Hooped&Clasped" to the medium armors only also seems resonable.

I still see a possible problem with Slayer in AiME (not enough diferent damage type and mind-affecting effects), but it strikes me that Tauler, as a monster with CR 9, do not have multiattack as one of his actions.
Nevertheless, it's still very powerfull enemy, capable of taking care most of the heroes - with exception of poison/damage-resisting, heavy armored Dwarven Beast of War, what sadly makes rest of the party almost useless in such combats.
Last edited by Anarfin on Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Michebugio
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Re: We need to talk about the Slayer

Post by Michebugio » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:45 pm

Gilrohir Arncelevon wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:30 pm
That's a great write up. I accept that a few of the numbers are possibly out as i suspect you only have the write down of hp on a combat pad, so any "analysis" is at best rough, but I think the dwarf got lucky.
[...]
Thank you (and to Wanton), I'm glad you also enjoyed the write up.

Yes, I agree that the retrospective analysis shows that the Dwarf definitely had some luck.

But:

1) The fight was practically carried out by only 2 Companions: the Slayer and the Wanderer, both of 5th level. The Treasure Hunter got paralysed in the surprise round, and the Scholar did 2 damage in total. Imagine how the fight would have been with all the Scholar's healing on the table, and the Treasure Hunter's Sneak Attacks.

2) The Wanderer had some very unlucky rolls, but he's actually a pretty good combatant. Had he not attempted that risky maneuver (which, by the way, I rewarded with Inspiration and a couple of extra XP), he wouldn't even have been damaged by the opportunity attack.

3) Without considering the Treasure Hunter's demise and the extra Stomp on the Warden, the fight would have ended with everybody at full health except the Slayer (who, I admit, got pretty close to death by the way). To me, this seems the outcome of an easy or medium fight, not of a deadly battle against a legendary creature that you're supposed to run from. It's a damn CR 9 battle!

4) Tauler dealt a total of more than 120 damage before resistances, an amount that would have downed any 2 or 3 non-Slayers. The Slayer ignored a total of 60 damage, more than enough to fell any other adventurer.


Also, think about a situation when this Slayer gets somehow mind-controlled by an enemy (charm, possession, or the like). This was actually suggested by one of the other players... and it doesn't depict such an unlikely situation, looking at the Dwarf's Wisdom save.
I truly believe that it would be an almost assured TPK: the other 3 adventurers would have serious trouble against him, even going all-out on him with no other enemy to battle. The Dwarf did more than 200 damage all by himself (before reductions) in 10 rounds, more than enough to wipe out a party of 4, not just 3 adventurers. On their side, they would have to surpass AC 20 and deal 130 damage, albeit with advantage on the rolls if he's going to use Reckless Attack: there's a damn high damage potential required, there.

In a less disastrous situation for the players, finally, imagine that this Dwarf wants to challenge to a duel a powerful NPC (Mogdred or Viglund, for example). In a one vs. one fight, at level 5 he would already beat the hell out of almost any NPC in Rhovanion with little or no effort. He would even have some chances against Beorn or Thranduil themselves! Of course, there's no reason why he should do something like that. But it's no secret that Beorn and Thranduil have no sympathy for the Dwarves...

Then I should come up with some unlikely excuses for these NPCs to refuse a duel, which would definitely make them appear weak and far less menacing than they're supposed to be.

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