New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

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zedturtle
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by zedturtle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:16 pm

Eldwyn wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:18 pm
Which leaves me more confused- nothing to me indicates that the rider's action is to give the mount an action...
The ability to pick a controlled mount's action is not the same as the rider taking an action to control the mount. However, if you had a special ability that was triggered by the character taking an action, then the mount taking that action would not trigger that special ability.

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I want to help out, if I can. If you want to ask specific questions, I'll do my best to answer them, to the extent of my understanding of the core rules. I won't make any inferences about the intent behind any rules, since that's not my place.
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Otaku-sempai » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:18 pm

Well, I am only giving you my best guess. I don't think that either one of us would mind getting some game designer input on this. ;)

Based on the Hound of Mirkwood, I would also suggest that a Rider with a trained Warhorse can eventually train it to perform other actions--i.e. Attack (Fight) and Help (Support)--and even to act independently with the proper training provided during one or more Fellowship phases. See the AiMe Player's Guide page 116. I doubt that we will get detailed guidance on this until the release of the region guide for Rohan.

It would still be great to have some general guidelines for training an animal such as a hunting dog, falcon, riding horse or pony, etc. For now, the only good options seem to be: a) to simply acquire a bird or beast that is already trained to obey basic commands; or, b) hire an animal trainer.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:21 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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zedturtle
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by zedturtle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:24 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote: That doesn't seem right; there is the option of having the mount not taking any action, per se.
Personally, I would rule the same way. A character that did not give his controlled mount an instruction to take an Action would just have the mount's Speed as movement. However, it would always be to your advantage to have the mount Dodge or Disengage in such circumstances.
Again, normal movement is not an action.
Agreed.
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Otaku-sempai » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:19 am

zedturtle wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:24 pm
Otaku-sempai wrote: That doesn't seem right; there is the option of having the mount not taking any action, per se.
Personally, I would rule the same way. A character that did not give his controlled mount an instruction to take an Action would just have the mount's Speed as movement.
Good, our positions are not as different as I thought. :)
However, it would always be to your advantage to have the mount Dodge or Disengage in such circumstances.
Not necessarily. If you have your mount Dodge or Disengage then, if I understand this right, you cannot normally Attack on that round unless you possess an ability that grants you a bonus Attack. If you want to Attack from horseback you need to use just normal movement or have an ability (such as Mounted Combat) that grants a bonus Attack. Admittedly, attacking from horseback is probably unwise if the Hero is not trained for it and the mount is unused to warfare. At the very least, the Hero should possess the skill Animal Handling.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by zedturtle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:32 am

The mount's action is not the rider's action. Each of them has their own action. It has to be that way, because a controlled mount cannot take the Attack action and if the mount's action and the rider's action had to match up then you could never attack.
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Otaku-sempai » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:35 pm

zedturtle wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:32 am
The mount's action is not the rider's action. Each of them has their own action. It has to be that way, because a controlled mount cannot take the Attack action and if the mount's action and the rider's action had to match up then you could never attack.
That may be so, but that point has been up for debate for this entire thread and could use some official guidance. I began this thread (mostly) in agreement with this viewpoint, but have since had second thoughts. I do not literally equate the mount's actions with the Rider's actions, that is actually an oversimplification. I do conclude that if the Rider directs the action of his mount then that may count for his own action for that round--unless he is granted a bonus action (such as a bonus Attack).

Even if you are correct, the Rider's options are limited while he is still mounted. For example, the mount may be directed to perform a Dash, but the Rider cannot Dash, himself, unless he first dismounts. Also, I still suspect that we will learn that mounts trained for fighting and warfare may be able to gain additional actions; however, we might not have this confirmed and learn the rules for this until the release of the region guide for Rohan.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eldwyn
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Eldwyn » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:37 pm

Thank you, Zed, with this logic:
The ability to pick a controlled mount's action is not the same as the rider taking an action to control the mount. However, if you had a special ability that was triggered by the character taking an action, then the mount taking that action would not trigger that special ability.
Should I surmise that the Mounted Combat Slayer Feature means that I get 2 benefits:
1) While mounted, you do +1d4 damage.
2) Whether mounted or not if you take the dash action, you can attack as a bonus action.

That seems to be the logical conclusion of what you're saying there?

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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Otaku-sempai » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:45 pm

Eldwyn wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:37 pm
Should I surmise that the Mounted Combat Slayer Feature means that I get 2 benefits:
1) While mounted, you do +1d4 damage.
2) Whether mounted or not if you take the dash action, you can attack as a bonus action.

That seems to be the logical conclusion of what you're saying there?
I disagree with point #2. I am certain that you are only meant to get the Dash benefit for Mounted Combat (bonus attack) while mounted. As far as getting one attack or two, take your best guess! Again, we could use some official advice. ;)

P.S.: I've sent Mr. Luikart a PM to ask about this issue.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eldwyn
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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Eldwyn » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:56 pm

I am going to take a best guess as to how this rule got so muddled:

*I do not believe the Devs fully understood mounted combat in D&D 5e when they wrote this rule. I say with no malice, or implication of them being less than thorough: The mounted combat rules are problematic in 5e. Just wanted to get that out of the way and not bruise an ego.
*The original rule was (paraphrasing) "When you dash you do +1d6 (instead of +1d4).
*I believe when the errata came out, that +1d6 damage was changed to "you may attack as a bonus action" (paraphrasing again).
*I believe this change was predicated on the incorrect assumption that a MOUNT DASHING counted as the player's action.
*THUS, the INTENT of the rule was to ensure the player could attack even after the mount dashed.

That seems correct, thematic, and like what a Rider of Rohan would do!

However, the interaction of the ability and the way the actual mounted combat rules work has become problematic and leaves us with the two outcomes we've been discussing here.

>>I am not trying to gain any benefit for my character, or be munchkin-y.... I just want to know how to interpret this. It seems like the original intent was to ensure the player could attack when his mount dashes. That is already the case... so...

Perhaps for now, I will work with my sagely, kind, and handsome loremaster (hi Overdawg!) to interpret the original intent of the rule? Maybe it's best to go back to the "If your mount dashed, you do a +1d6 instead of a +1d4". OR get an additional bonus action attack if dashing.

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Re: New to AiME- Please help me understand lvl 3 "Rider" ability!

Post by Otaku-sempai » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:10 pm

Naturally, your LM gets final say. I had forgotten or didn't realize that you weren't the LM. I have asked TS Luikart via PM for some official guidance on this matter, laying out the contentious issues that have come up. Hopefully he will provide some helpful advice.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

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