Sindarin and Half Elves

The place for discussion of Cubicle 7 and Sophisticated Games' "Adventures in Middle-earth" OGL setting.
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Caladan
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Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:23 pm

Sindarin and Half Elves

Post by Caladan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:33 pm

Has anyone stated the Sindarin or Half elves yet. A player in my area has asked about both. How different would they be from the Silvan elves?

Enevhar Aldarion
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Re: Sindarin and Half Elves

Post by Enevhar Aldarion » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:20 pm

Not sure about Sindarin, but I would treat Half-Elves the same as their Elven parent, unless they choose to be mortal. At that point I am not sure if I would treat them the same as their Human parent or homebrew up some sort of in between rules for them. Without going to Tolkien's books to look it up, I cannot remember if a Half-Elf who chooses mortality even retains any Elven talents.

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Sindarin and Half Elves

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:27 pm

Caladan wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:33 pm
Has anyone stated the Sindarin or Half elves yet. A player in my area has asked about both. How different would they be from the Silvan elves?
I'm not sure that AME is going to address the issue of the Half-elven aside from discussion of Elrond and his children. Arguably, the Choice of the Peredhil would not extend to other potential Half-elves (contradicting what is indicated for the Half-elves of MERP). I am going to suggest, and I suspect that this will spark much debate, that Half-elves outside of the family of Elrond should be automatically treated as mortal Men, physically similar to the Númenóreans.

The Elves of Mirkwood (and, for that matter, the Elves of Lothlórien) are already a mixture of Sindar and (mostly) Silvan Elves. I'm not sure that AME reflects this mixed heritage as well as TOR does with it's Cultural Backrounds.

Sindar and other Telerin Elves are counted as Eldar; the largest population of Sindar in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age would be at the Grey Havens and Lindon. They might be treated as an Advanced Culture, similar to the High Elves of Rivendell. Noldor would come to Mithlond to take ship for the West, but I don't know that they would linger long enough to be counted as part of that culture. In the Second Age Gil-galad and his Noldorin followers also made Lindon their home.

All High Elves would be Eldar, but would all Eldar be High Elves? Or is the answer not so clear-cut?
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
DR. MANHATTAN: I'm leaving this galaxy for one less complicated.
OZYMANDIAS: But you'd regained interest in human life...
DR. MANHATTAN: Yes, I have. I think perhaps I'll create some. Goodbye, Adrian.

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Sindarin and Half Elves

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:55 pm

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:20 pm
Not sure about Sindarin, but I would treat Half-Elves the same as their Elven parent, unless they choose to be mortal. At that point I am not sure if I would treat them the same as their Human parent or homebrew up some sort of in between rules for them. Without going to Tolkien's books to look it up, I cannot remember if a Half-Elf who chooses mortality even retains any Elven talents.
Well as my previous post indicates, I disagree with this somewhat in that I think that any children born of Elven and Mannish parents outside of the family of Elrond should be treated as mortal. However, for the sake of argument: if you allow a Half-elven Hero to choose between an Elvish heritage and mortality, I think that any Elven abilities would fade and disappear if the Hero chose mortality. The character would begin to age as a mortal Man; would no longer be immune from natural disease; would be subject to normal scarring; would no longer gain the benefits of the Elven form of rest; etc. I do not think that learned skills should be lost and some abilities such as Foresight might be retained.
DR. MANHATTAN: I'm leaving this galaxy for one less complicated.
OZYMANDIAS: But you'd regained interest in human life...
DR. MANHATTAN: Yes, I have. I think perhaps I'll create some. Goodbye, Adrian.

Caladan
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Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:23 pm

Re: Sindarin and Half Elves

Post by Caladan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:20 pm

After doing some more research it would seem that all but Elronds family line are mortal and do not get the choice. It also states that half elves are basically Númenóreans, so that answers my question on half elves.

BookBarbarian
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Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:34 pm

Re: Sindarin and Half Elves

Post by BookBarbarian » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:02 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:55 pm
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:20 pm
Not sure about Sindarin, but I would treat Half-Elves the same as their Elven parent, unless they choose to be mortal. At that point I am not sure if I would treat them the same as their Human parent or homebrew up some sort of in between rules for them. Without going to Tolkien's books to look it up, I cannot remember if a Half-Elf who chooses mortality even retains any Elven talents.
Well as my previous post indicates, I disagree with this somewhat in that I think that any children born of Elven and Mannish parents outside of the family of Elrond should be treated as mortal. However, for the sake of argument: if you allow a Half-elven Hero to choose between an Elvish heritage and mortality, I think that any Elven abilities would fade and disappear if the Hero chose mortality. The character would begin to age as a mortal Man; would no longer be immune from natural disease; would be subject to normal scarring; would no longer gain the benefits of the Elven form of rest; etc. I do not think that learned skills should be lost and some abilities such as Foresight might be retained.
What example do we have of Half-Elves that were not of the Tour-Idril or Beren-Luthien lines? Presumably some ancestor of Imrahil, but were there any others?

I remember reading the Silmarillion as a kid and reasoning that since Arwen was able to chose, but the descendants of Elros weren't able to choose that it seemed like if your parent had chosen the Elven side you would get a choice, but if they choose the Mannish side you didn't get a choice. But my teenage reasoning has not held up in many respects over the years.

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Sindarin and Half Elves

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:59 pm

BookBarbarian wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:02 pm
What example do we have of Half-Elves that were not of the Tour-Idril or Beren-Luthien lines? Presumably some ancestor of Imrahil, but were there any others?
None that I'm aware of; my post entirely reflected my own personal reading and opinion, though based largely on the ancestry of Imrahil. There must have been a number of unions of Men and Elves, but no evidence of any others resulting in Half-elves who could choose between mortality and immortality. After Elwing, that choice seems to have been limited to Elros, Elrond and Elrond's children (not that I minded the choice of the Half-elven being available to characters in MERP! :lol: ).
I remember reading the Silmarillion as a kid and reasoning that since Arwen was able to chose, but the descendants of Elros weren't able to choose that it seemed like if your parent had chosen the Elven side you would get a choice, but if they choose the Mannish side you didn't get a choice. But my teenage reasoning has not held up in many respects over the years.
Give yourself more credit; your interpretation seems to be absolutely correct. Likewise the children of King Elessar and Arwen (Eldarion and his sisters) all seem to be of Mannish persuasion from birth.
DR. MANHATTAN: I'm leaving this galaxy for one less complicated.
OZYMANDIAS: But you'd regained interest in human life...
DR. MANHATTAN: Yes, I have. I think perhaps I'll create some. Goodbye, Adrian.

BookBarbarian
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:34 pm

Re: Sindarin and Half Elves

Post by BookBarbarian » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:13 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:59 pm
Give yourself more credit; your interpretation seems to be absolutely correct. Likewise the children of King Elessar and Arwen (Eldarion and his sisters) all seem to be of Mannish persuasion from birth.
Thanks for the validation!

It still seems very nebulous though. For instance, I assume Arwen didn't even think she would or maybe even could make such a choice, despite knowing her father did so, until plighting her troth with Aragorn in Lorien. Likewise I'm sure that Elladan and Elrohir have never even considered it before.

So while Earendil, Elwing, Elros, and Elrond all had to choose at the end of the first age, it didn't even come up for a child of Elrond until fate waked into the forest in the form of the Numenorean heir.

This is all academic of course. I don't have any players clamoring to play Half-Elves in Middle Earth.

ThanassisCon
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:15 pm

Re: Sindarin and Half Elves

Post by ThanassisCon » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:05 am

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:27 pm
Caladan wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:33 pm
Has anyone stated the Sindarin or Half elves yet. A player in my area has asked about both. How different would they be from the Silvan elves?
I'm not sure that AME is going to address the issue of the Half-elven aside from discussion of Elrond and his children. Arguably, the Choice of the Peredhil would not extend to other potential Half-elves (contradicting what is indicated for the Half-elves of MERP). I am going to suggest, and I suspect that this will spark much debate, that Half-elves outside of the family of Elrond should be automatically treated as mortal Men, physically similar to the Númenóreans.

The Elves of Mirkwood (and, for that matter, the Elves of Lothlórien) are already a mixture of Sindar and (mostly) Silvan Elves. I'm not sure that AME reflects this mixed heritage as well as TOR does with it's Cultural Backrounds.

Sindar and other Telerin Elves are counted as Eldar; the largest population of Sindar in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age would be at the Grey Havens and Lindon. They might be treated as an Advanced Culture, similar to the High Elves of Rivendell. Noldor would come to Mithlond to take ship for the West, but I don't know that they would linger long enough to be counted as part of that culture. In the Second Age Gil-galad and his Noldorin followers also made Lindon their home.

All High Elves would be Eldar, but would all Eldar be High Elves? Or is the answer not so clear-cut?
I can answer this! The term "Eldar" refers to the elves that began the great journey to the West following Oromë. Those that didn't follow him out of fear were called the "Avari". This actually was the First Sundering of the Quendi (All elves are Quendi).

The Second Sundering occured when some of the Eldar were afraid of crossing the Hithaeglir (Misty Mountains) and were contempt with living in the great forests of Wilderland (that would later shrink and become Mirkwood). Those were the Nandor, ancestors of the Silvan Elves.

The Third Sundering occured when the Teleri followers of Elwë stayed behind looking for him (while he was lovestruck with Melian) Those guys became the Sindar Elves.

Those that went on to Aman and saw the light of the Two Trees were the Calaquendi (Light or High Elves) and are divided into Vanyar, Noldor and Falmari.

In the late Third Age there are very few Calaquendi in Middle Earth, living mostly in Lindon and Rivendell. Galadriel is a Calaquendi (the only one living in Lorien). :)

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Sindarin and Half Elves

Post by Otaku-sempai » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:41 pm

As is many questions with the Elves, the answer is both 'yes' and 'no' (or, 'it depends'). But if we mean that only Elves who have been to the Undying Lands are High Elves then the Sindar (excepting Círdan) and some other Teleri are mostly excluded.
DR. MANHATTAN: I'm leaving this galaxy for one less complicated.
OZYMANDIAS: But you'd regained interest in human life...
DR. MANHATTAN: Yes, I have. I think perhaps I'll create some. Goodbye, Adrian.

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