Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

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Rich H
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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Rich H » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:36 pm

Falenthal wrote:From the AC:
Bow of the Galadhrim (great bow)
So, to use a Bow of the Galadhrim, the Bow ability doesn't qualify.
Therefore, the configuration Sword, Bow, Dagger can't use a Bow of the Galadhrim.
And this isn't something new in the RAW so isn't a mistake, it's deliberate design. For instance, Bardings have something similar with regard to the Dalish Longbow reward. The following is one of the weapon set choices for the Bardings:

(Swords) 2, Spear 1, Dagger 1

Here there is no bow group so the Dalish Longbow isn't useful "out-the-box" at character generation.

I'd therefore caution against changing Lorien elves without looking at the impact on other cultures similarly designed.

voronwe
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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by voronwe » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:37 pm

To Legolas [Galadriel] gave a bow such as the Galadhrim used, longer and stouter than the bows of Mirkwood, and strung with a string of elf-hair. With it went a quiver of arrows.
To me, that does not necessarily point to a Great Bow.
I agree with you in that. Maybe the easiest solution is to consider the Cultural Reward a bow and not a Great Bow in terms of use. So every Elf of Lorien would use it from the start if he/she chooses so.

It's not the ideal for me anyway as I find very strange that Elves of Lorien don't have proficency (aka favoured) in any bow... I find extremely out-of-place that a Man of the Lake can start the game with Great Bow 2 but an Elf of Lorien can not in any kind of bow... :o
Last edited by voronwe on Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by voronwe » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:40 pm

Rich H wrote:
Falenthal wrote:From the AC:
Bow of the Galadhrim (great bow)
So, to use a Bow of the Galadhrim, the Bow ability doesn't qualify.
Therefore, the configuration Sword, Bow, Dagger can't use a Bow of the Galadhrim.
And this isn't something new in the RAW so isn't a mistake, it's deliberate design. For instance, Bardings have something similar with regard to the Dalish Longbow reward. The following is one of the weapon set choices for the Bardings:

(Swords) 2, Spear 1, Dagger 1

Here there is no bow group so the Dalish Longbow isn't useful "out-the-box" at character generation.

I'd therefore caution against changing Lorien elves without looking at the impact on other cultures similarly designed.
I can't see your point here... in this weapon set you displayed Bardings have no bow... ok for a close combat fighter... but in the other one they have Great Bow 2! So they -and Men of the Lake- are better archers than the Elves of Lorien as starting characters (disregarding Cultural Virtues or Rewards)... it seems weird and untolkienish to me...

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Rich H
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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Rich H » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:59 pm

voronwe wrote:I can't see your point here... in this weapon set you displayed Bardings have no bow... ok for a close combat fighter... but in the other one they have Great Bow 2
And Elves of Lorien get (bows) in one of their options so have access to the Galadhrim virtue. The fact the skill is favoured or not makes very little difference in actual play, especially as PCs get higher ratings in their weapon skills (ie, 3 or more) as that extra 1-3 points from their favoured attribute has increasingly diminishing returns.
voronwe wrote:So they -and Men of the Lake- are better archers than the Elves of Lorien as starting characters (disregarding Cultural Virtues or Rewards)... it seems weird and untolkienish to me...
In what way are they better? A Barding only gets competency with Great Bow, Elves of Lorien get all bows so have a massive amount of versatility - especially where using a bow in forest comes into play; as LM I would apply a -2 or -4 penalty to using a great bow under certain conditions, quite easily. Rather than messing around with starting weapon skill sets, I could find a more convincing argument to making Bow of the Galadhrim a bow rather than a great bow.

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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Glorelendil » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:01 pm

voronwe wrote: I can't see your point here... in this weapon set you displayed Bardings have no bow... ok for a close combat fighter... but in the other one they have Great Bow 2! So they -and Men of the Lake- are better archers than the Elves of Lorien as starting characters (disregarding Cultural Virtues or Rewards)... it seems weird and untolkienish to me...
You are trying to read too much into his example. His point was merely that there are other cultures where a cultural reward is only usable with one of the initial weapon selections.

I understand that you don't like that brand new characters don't exhibit the cultural strengths you associate with Tolkien. Two responses:
1) The heroes in Tolkien are not brand new adventurers. Elves are more likely to live long enough to get to skill 6, and therefore will end up being better archers than Men.
2) In Tolkien, Elves are way better at everything than Men are. You could make the same argument about everything: "They should have Song: 6! And Craft! And Lore!" Etc. It wouldn't be much fun for non-Elves if the game rules actually modeled the source texts.

Besides, favoured weapons really add so little. It factors in when you spend Hope, and even then only some of the time. So the initial advantage of Bardings is trivial.
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Rich H
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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Rich H » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:03 pm

Glorelendil wrote:You are trying to read too much into his example. His point was merely that there are other cultures where a cultural reward is only usable with one of the initial weapon selections.
And that too. Thanks.
Glorelendil wrote:Besides, favoured weapons really add so little. It factors in when you spend Hope, and even then only some of the time.
Yep, I do think favoured mechanics in the game could be rewritten to be more useful across the whole life of a character.

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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Falenthal » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:16 pm

Rich H wrote:
Glorelendil wrote:Besides, favoured weapons really add so little. It factors in when you spend Hope, and even then only some of the time.
Yep, I do think favoured mechanics in the game could be rewritten to be more useful across the whole life of a character.
Well, now a Favoured skill costs less XPs/APs to improve.

If I were to change something about Lórien Elves, I'd change (Bows) for Great Bow, Sword, Dagger; and Sword for (Spears), Bow, Dagger.

Like Woodland Elves, but changing Bow for Great Bow.

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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Glorelendil » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:27 pm

Falenthal wrote: Well, now a Favoured skill costs less XPs/APs to improve.
Unless I've been playing incorrectly this whole time, that's only true for common skills, not weapon skills.
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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Dunkelbrink » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:36 pm

Glorelendil wrote:
Falenthal wrote: Well, now a Favoured skill costs less XPs/APs to improve.
Unless I've been playing incorrectly this whole time, that's only true for common skills, not weapon skills.
Yup, that's right. Only applies to Common skills.

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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Rich H » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:37 pm

Glorelendil wrote:
Falenthal wrote: Well, now a Favoured skill costs less XPs/APs to improve.
Unless I've been playing incorrectly this whole time, that's only true for common skills, not weapon skills.
Yes, true. Also, it's the application/usage of them that I find unsatisfactory - I really would like a more interesting usage for them.

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