Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

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voronwe
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Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by voronwe » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:35 pm

It's me or the starting weapon skill sets for the Elves of Lórien are a bit... unattuned to the culture? I mean, if I understand correctly what it is implied in The Lord of the Rings, the regular bow in Lothlórien was bigger as a rule tan the Mirkwood Realm's one... why then the "(Bows) 2" option for the Elves of Lórien instead of "Great Bow 2" which sounds more natural (and attuned to me)?

Moreover... where are the long knives (let's read "short words" in game terms) that both the Elves of Lórien and the Elves of Mirkwood tend to favour, according to the books?

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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Falenthal » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:17 pm

I'd give them Great Bow, too, instead of (Bows).

Regarding the "long knives", you can consider them Short Swords so well balanced and keen that they are like normal Swords.

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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Terisonen » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:25 pm

Elves of Lorien have Lance(s) and Sword, or Bow and sword. To balance the two culture, I consider Lorien elves to have Bow(s) and Lance, or Sword and Bow a fit choice.

Long Knives and Short Sword are just considered as Sword.
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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Zulgolra » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:16 am

I think there is a misunderstandig:

First a Great Bow is a totaly different weapon from a bow. It is not just a little bit bigger, or any bigger bow it is almost as big as the archer. That is like with short swords and longswords... And a great bow is a silly weapon when you are fighting in the woods, espeacially in the trees... It is a weapon for the field with all its range and the time needed to make it ready and pull it...

Second, the Lorien bow is found as a cultural reward. There it says, that it is bigger than a woodland realm bow, but that doesn' t mean as big as a great bow. It has the advantages of encumberence and piercing shots, so it is a better bow, than the woodrealm ones, but not as strong as a great bow (like a composite bow versus a "normal" short bow).

According to the skillsets: In both choices they know how to handle a bow,
they get (bows) 2, spear and dagger 1 or
sword 2, bow and dagger 1

The advantage of (bows) is to handle every bow, no matter if it is great or not...

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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Falenthal » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:51 am

From the AC:
Bow of the Galadhrim (great bow)
So, to use a Bow of the Galadhrim, the Bow ability doesn't qualify.
Therefore, the configuration Sword, Bow, Dagger can't use a Bow of the Galadhrim.

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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by voronwe » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:11 am

Zulgolra wrote:Therefore, the configuration Sword, Bow, Dagger can't use a Bow of the Galadhrim.
Yes, this is the worst part of it for me. I find it inexplicable and a plain and flat disadventage for this culture.

And regarding long knives, it is far less important an issue -if we put aside Tolkien's flavour- but not irrelevant: the destructive progress of a regular sword is better than that of a short sword, but its encumbrance is higher too... the difference widens when we add roleplaying factors such as the ease of use in narrow spaces (dense woods, caves...) or the difficulty for hiding the blade under your cloak orr behind your back when needed.

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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Glorelendil » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:39 pm

I think it's simply a symmetry problem. Every normal culture gets two choices:
(weapons) weapon dagger
weapon weapon dagger

If it were (swords) and Great Bow then Lorien elves would have access to Long Sword, which doesn't make sense at all. So I think the rationale is that elves who are primarily archers have access to Bow of the Galadhrim, and elves who are primarily swordsmen and have bows for backup do not.

Is it perfect, no. But given that the only downside is that Lorien Elves who prioritize swords over bows can't get it, and if your priority is sword it seems ill-advised to spend a precious Valour point on the bow anyway, I don't think it's much of a flaw.
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voronwe
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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by voronwe » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:12 pm

Glorelendil wrote: Every normal culture gets two choices:
(weapons) weapon dagger
weapon weapon dagger
That's not true even for all normal cultures. For example, Men of the Lake:

1) Great Bow 2, Sword 1, Dagger 1
2) Sword 2, Bow 1, Dagger 1

So there is not even a practical or game balance reason for the odd sets for the Elves of Lorien.
I would suggest something like this:

1) Great Bow 2, Short Sword 1, Dagger 1
2) Sword 2, Great Bow 1, Dagger 1

Or, even more attuned to the books as I understand them:

1) Great Bow 2, Short Sword 1, Dagger 1
2) (Spears) 2, Great Bow 1, Dagger 1

On this matter of the Great Bow, we should consider that, according to The Lord of The Rings ("Farewell to Lórien" chapter) the bow that Lady Galadriel gives to Legolas seems to be a regular Galadhrim bow (the elven hair string might have been something special or unsusual) and that Galadhrim bows were larger and stronger than Mirkwood ones.

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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:29 pm

Weapon Skills
Choose one of the following two Weapon skill sets, and record it on the character sheet:
~ 1) (Bows) 2, Spear 1, Dagger 1
~ 2) Sword 2, Bow 1, Dagger 1
Since (bows) assumes proficiency with all bows, I don't see a problem with this; although, the Cultural Reward of Bow of the Galadhrim does certainly favor the first option, else the Elf of Lórien Hero has to gain the Great Bow proficiency separately. I very much doubt that Lórien-elves routinely used the larger Great Bows for hunting; that just isn't practical in dense woods.
To Legolas [Galadriel] gave a bow such as the Galadhrim used, longer and stouter than the bows of Mirkwood, and strung with a string of elf-hair. With it went a quiver of arrows.
To me, that does not necessarily point to a Great Bow.
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Re: Elves of Lorien starting weapon skill sets

Post by Glorelendil » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:58 pm

voronwe wrote:
Glorelendil wrote: Every normal culture gets two choices:
(weapons) weapon dagger
weapon weapon dagger
Well look at that! I stand corrected. I hadn't noticed they broke the pattern.

Still, the tweak to Lorien Elves would require:
(bows) spear dagger
sword (bows) dagger

Which would mean both a favoured and a family for one of the choices.

Honestly if anybody really wants the favoured sword build AND the Bow of the Galadhrim they can just spend 2 XP to bring Great Bow up to 1. Think of the cost as "convincing Galadriel to hand out one of these bows to somebody who is not really even an archer."
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