Dual Wielding again, comments and playtesting needed!

The unique One Ring rules set invites tinkering and secondary creation. Whilst The One Ring works brilliantly as written, we provide this forum for those who want to make their own home-brewed versions of the rules. Note that none of these should be taken as 'official'.
PipeSmoker
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:26 pm

Re: Dual Wielding again, comments and playtesting needed!

Post by PipeSmoker » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:38 pm

Wait, wait, Otaku Sempai! It seems you misunderstood the rule and I'll point out a few considerations:
Otaku-sempai wrote:I would change how to determine a successful hit with the secondary weapon. Using a "G" result minus the damage rating of the weapon seems counterintuitive to me.
A succesful hit with the secondary weapon is inflicted rolling G result minus the Weapon Skill of the secondary weapon (not it's damage rating, which is used solely for extra damage)
Otaku Sempai wrote:I might resolve the attack normally, but add a +2 to succeed.
We considered that, but it seemed too easy to inflict a secondary attack and that gave way to the chance to inflict 2 wounds in an attack row (2 attack rolls), which would be unbalancing in our opinion compared to 2 handers for damage dealing. We tried to stick to official material, such as Shield Fighting, as much as we could.
In any case, that could be another way, feel free to tweak and let us know!

EDIT to clarify on comparison with 2 handers: Rolling 2 standard attacks in a row means you get the chance of inflicting 2 wounds and more chances of scoring 6s to add your damage rating (equal to body and maybe doubled). Then add that both weapons may be Grievous.That leads to humongous amounts of damage, far better than any 2 hander could hope to inflict. Even Trolls could be slain in a single attack turn. Woah.
What we did allows a slightly superior damage cap and a slightly better chance to Pierce. On the other side, a worst chance of high amounts of damage over turns (tied to a Weapon Skill related roll, you're not sure to inflict extra damage every turn), plus you need to acquire this as a Mastery, not so with 2 handers. EDIT ended.
Otaku-sempai wrote:I would rule that when using two weapons, the primary weapon is held in whichever hand is the favored hand of the wielder and that the primary weapon is the larger of the two (if applicable). The secondary weapon is wielded in the user's off-hand.
We avoided that simply because it seemed just pesky and unnecessary, just like in standard rules you don't need to state if you're right or left handed and declare which hand you're using. But as above feel free to tweak away.
Otaku-sempai wrote:As to where such a cultural virtue might be found, I suggest the Avari for the Elves and, for Men, the Haradrim or the Corsairs of Umbar (who might even practice gladatorial combat).
Good call!

User avatar
Robin Smallburrow
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 10:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Dual Wielding again, comments and playtesting needed!

Post by Robin Smallburrow » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:52 am

There has bee much discussion on this before, but as someone who has looked into this for the Corsairs of Umbar:

1. Normally the penalty to wield a weapon in the offhand (unless has Specialty Ambidextrous) is -4 . With Ambidextrous or Dual weapon fighting this penalty is reduced to -2
2. As u rightly point out, only certain weapons can be combined. The scimitar is a Corsairs favourite weapon because he can wield a dagger without a skill penalty (all other secondary weapons are at least -1 to skill
3. U should roll a second attack for the secondary weapon, but its Edge & Injury is penalised by 1. This last rule because 2 weapons should never be more dangerous than a 2handed weapon. ( or more people would use them)

Robin S
To access all my links for my TOR Resources - please click on this link >> http://bit.ly/1gjXkCo

User avatar
MrNidnan
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:53 pm
Location: Barcelona (Spain)

Re: Dual Wielding again, comments and playtesting needed!

Post by MrNidnan » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:28 pm

Hi, interesting post and rules.

I don't how you keep the balance between 2h, 1h+shield, 2x1h. At first glance seems all are advantages for duelwielding.
Agree they're similar to the 1h+shield but 1h+Shield is a virtue for only 1 culture, not available for all, and to be honest I find that virtue quite overpowered I don't like it so much... anyway I got few questions :

* dual wield mastery skill is a virtue? then a PC must have the other 2 skills for the weapons?
* once you have this skill you can combine weapons at demand? I mean I got a PC that has swords dagger and axe. Can he combine sword with axe and later one axe with dagger? If this is the case seems bit unrealistic as the combination of different weapons requires different trainings
Robin Smallburrow wrote:There has bee much discussion on this before, but as someone who has looked into this for the Corsairs of Umbar:

1. Normally the penalty to wield a weapon in the offhand (unless has Specialty Ambidextrous) is -4 . With Ambidextrous or Dual weapon fighting this penalty is reduced to -2
2. As u rightly point out, only certain weapons can be combined. The scimitar is a Corsairs favourite weapon because he can wield a dagger without a skill penalty (all other secondary weapons are at least -1 to skill
3. U should roll a second attack for the secondary weapon, but its Edge & Injury is penalised by 1. This last rule because 2 weapons should never be more dangerous than a 2handed weapon. ( or more people would use them)
Fencing realistic talking using two weapons not implies more damage. Like Robin stated in his point three, 2 weapons should never be more dangerous than a 2handed weapon in terms of damage.

Main benefits for wielding two weapons:
1) Help on parrying/disarm
2) Possibility to strike with off-hand normally INSTEAD of main-hand, seldom, if ever, gonna strike with both weapons at the same time

How to translate that in the current system? not sure.
First concern. Actual system interpret combats rounds with "undefined" time duration, not just actions or strikes strikes

I'd penalize the damage and accuracy (probably edge too) on off-hand (not sure about your new damage tables)

If you gonna strike double you have to miss more or hit softer.


Benefits?
+1 to parry
You still have a weapon if you get disarmed
You can actually attack with your off-hand! (if you don't got this skill attack with offhand should penalize you greatly)
You can roleplay combats and a player-heroes that wield two weapons ^^
Oh! and have the possibility to do 2 different special attacks (i.e. disarm with sword and injure with dagger

More than that... double strikes double damage more chances of delivering a wound seems to break the balance and make 2 wielding much more effective than it actually should be.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
-- Fellowship of the Ring

User avatar
Valarian
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 11:57 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Contact:

Re: Dual Wielding again, comments and playtesting needed!

Post by Valarian » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:45 am

I would drop sword as an option, unless paired with axe or dagger. Weilding two full sized (3') swords is awkward, to say the least. Unlike axes, the balance isn't right.
Main benefits for wielding two weapons:
1) Help on parrying/disarm
2) Possibility to strike with off-hand normally INSTEAD of main-hand, seldom, if ever, gonna strike with both weapons at the same time
Personally, I don't see a need to complicate matters. If they wish to dual weild then they either get a +1 to damage (using to aid the attack) or a +1 to parry (using for defence). Bonus to be chosen in their action or when attacked.
European FG2 RPG
Using Ultimate Fantasy Grounds - that means anyone can play.
Image

User avatar
MrNidnan
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:53 pm
Location: Barcelona (Spain)

Re: Dual Wielding again, comments and playtesting needed!

Post by MrNidnan » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:23 pm

Valarian wrote:I would drop sword as an option, unless paired with axe or dagger. Weilding two full sized (3') swords is awkward, to say the least. Unlike axes, the balance isn't right.
Main benefits for wielding two weapons:
1) Help on parrying/disarm
2) Possibility to strike with off-hand normally INSTEAD of main-hand, seldom, if ever, gonna strike with both weapons at the same time
Personally, I don't see a need to complicate matters. If they wish to dual weild then they either get a +1 to damage (using to aid the attack) or a +1 to parry (using for defence). Bonus to be chosen in their action or when attacked.
I like that!
I didn't though it too much but bonus could be determined on your stance.
Something like: vanguard +1 damage / open +1 hit / defensive +1parry
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
-- Fellowship of the Ring

User avatar
Valarian
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 11:57 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Contact:

Re: Dual Wielding again, comments and playtesting needed!

Post by Valarian » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:01 pm

To Hit is already modified through the change of stance. +1 damage emulates opening up an attack path with the secondary weapon (hitting harder as a result). +1 parry emulates using the secondary weapon in a defensive fashion, even if attacking aggressively (forward stance).
European FG2 RPG
Using Ultimate Fantasy Grounds - that means anyone can play.
Image

User avatar
Rich H
Posts: 4156
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 8:19 pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Dual Wielding again, comments and playtesting needed!

Post by Rich H » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:32 pm

MrNidnan wrote:
Valarian wrote:I would drop sword as an option, unless paired with axe or dagger. Weilding two full sized (3') swords is awkward, to say the least. Unlike axes, the balance isn't right.
Main benefits for wielding two weapons:
1) Help on parrying/disarm
2) Possibility to strike with off-hand normally INSTEAD of main-hand, seldom, if ever, gonna strike with both weapons at the same time
Personally, I don't see a need to complicate matters. If they wish to dual weild then they either get a +1 to damage (using to aid the attack) or a +1 to parry (using for defence). Bonus to be chosen in their action or when attacked.
I like that!
I didn't though it too much but bonus could be determined on your stance.
Something like: vanguard +1 damage / open +1 hit / defensive +1parry
This isn't much different to the rule I use...

DUAL WIELDING
You wield two, one-handed weapons with lethal grace and potent skill. This is limited to club, dagger, hand-axe, mace, morning star, short sword, and sword. The encumbrance value of both weapons must be calculated for determination of Fatigue (paired daggers have an Encumbrance of 1). One weapon must be designated the primary; the other is the secondary. The bonus of dual wielding depends on current Stance:

Forward: Reduce Edge of the primary weapon by one.

Open: Increase Injury TN of the primary weapon by two.

Defensive: Add a parry value equal to the Encumbrance of your secondary weapon to a minimum value of 1. This is not the paired total, just a single weapon, so daggers have +1 (due to the minimum value rule) while swords add +2 parry.

In all cases, only a single attack roll is ever made and no more than a single target can be attacked per turn.
TOR resources thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62
TOR miniatures thread: viewtopic.php?t=885

Fellowship of the Free Tale of Years: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8318

Otaku-sempai
Posts: 3398
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 2:45 am
Location: Lackawanna, NY

Re: Dual Wielding again, comments and playtesting needed!

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:47 am

Okay, here is my most recent take on the subject and a couple of new weapons to go with it. The idea was to keep it simple by basing it as closely as possible on the Lake-men's 'Shield-Fighting' Virtue.

New Cultural Virtue - Mirkwood Elves: Two-Weapon Fighting. If you are fighting with two weapons, both must be one-handed weapons. The secondary weapon cannot be larger than a short sword* or larger than your primary weapon. When you successfully hit an enemy roll the Feat die again: on a role of 8+ you inflict an additional loss of Endurance equal to your Damage rating plus the Damage value of your secondary weapon. Your secondary weapon can be used to defend as if you were using a buckler (for a dagger) or as a shield (for any other weapon).

* Secondary weapons are limited to: dagger, short sword, axe or club.

New Weapon: Mirkwood Fighting Knives. Usually crafted in pairs, these long, exceptionally well-balanced blades are meant to be wielded in a two-weapon fighting style, similar to the Lake-men's Cultural Virtue of Shield-Fighting. Blade length varies from about 13 1/2 to about 15 3/4 inches .if you get a "G" on the Feat die when attacking with an Elven Fighting Knife, you inflict double the normal Damage (3 + 3 = 6).
- Damage: 3
- Edge: "G"
- Injury: 12
- Encumberance: 0
- Group: Daggers

New Weapon: Cudgel (aka Club). One-handed weapon usually crafted of wood or bone. Can be a simlar improvised weapon such as a table leg or belaying pin.
- Damage: 4
- Edge: G
- Injury: 14
- Encumberance: 1
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

User avatar
James Harrison
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:30 pm

Re: Dual Wielding again, comments and playtesting needed!

Post by James Harrison » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:41 pm

Rich - I like your rules, makes for a versatile option that doesn't overshadow a two handed weapon!
Well done!

User avatar
Rich H
Posts: 4156
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 8:19 pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Dual Wielding again, comments and playtesting needed!

Post by Rich H » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:44 pm

James Harrison wrote:Rich - I like your rules, makes for a versatile option that doesn't overshadow a two handed weapon!
Well done!
Thanks. They have been tweaked slightly in the Additional Riles supplement if you compare the two. I was working from an old copy when I posted in this thread, rather than my play-tested version. They were originally created by Doc Nova if memory serves, not me.
TOR resources thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62
TOR miniatures thread: viewtopic.php?t=885

Fellowship of the Free Tale of Years: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8318

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest