Toward a Theory of Weapon Stats

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Glorelendil
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Re: Toward a Theory of Weapon Stats

Post by Glorelendil » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:01 pm

Yes, and people have been killed with knitting needles. That doesn't mean a knitting needle should do the same damage as a sword.

More importantly, I'm disappointed in myself for falling into the realism trap. What really matters is trade-offs in game mechanics: if slings do less damage than bows they need to be compensated in some other way, such as a encumbrance of zero.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
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Elmoth
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Re: Toward a Theory of Weapon Stats

Post by Elmoth » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:33 pm

Wow. Just saying what you said about slings just shows that you are reproducing the consistent failure of realism in weapons in RPGs.

Glorelendil
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Re: Toward a Theory of Weapon Stats

Post by Glorelendil » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:17 pm

Elmoth wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:33 pm
Wow. Just saying what you said about slings just shows that you are reproducing the consistent failure of realism in weapons in RPGs.
You should see my rules for dental hygiene for pre-industrial societies. Really more of a subsystem.
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Vuriche
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Re: Toward a Theory of Weapon Stats

Post by Vuriche » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:27 pm

Glorelendil wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:17 pm
Elmoth wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:33 pm
Wow. Just saying what you said about slings just shows that you are reproducing the consistent failure of realism in weapons in RPGs.
You should see my rules for dental hygiene for pre-industrial societies. Really more of a subsystem.
:lol: I'm dying (and not for lack of dental hygiene)!

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Toward a Theory of Weapon Stats

Post by Otaku-sempai » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:46 pm

Glorelendil wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:01 pm
Yes, and people have been killed with knitting needles. That doesn't mean a knitting needle should do the same damage as a sword.
Which is an ad hominem argument that I thought you would know better than to use. Comparing a knitting needle to a sword of any class is not remotely like comparing a sling to a bow (unless it's one of those little plastic swords used to stir mixed drinks). 'Nuff said! :lol:
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Glorelendil
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Re: Toward a Theory of Weapon Stats

Post by Glorelendil » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:40 am

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:46 pm
Glorelendil wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:01 pm
Yes, and people have been killed with knitting needles. That doesn't mean a knitting needle should do the same damage as a sword.
Which is an ad hominem argument that I thought you would know better than to use.
???
Comparing a knitting needle to a sword of any class is not remotely like comparing a sling to a bow
Sure it is. In both cases we are saying that weapon A can do as much damage as weapon B. I am choosing to make that comparison with a pair of otherwise incomparable weapons, in order to illustrate the problem of using that comparison in the first place. Or, really (to bring in my follow-up post, as well as the reason I started this thread in the first place) the problem with assigning any damage to any weapon based on our estimates of how much damage it does historically or in real life. That just shouldn't be the basis for weapon stats. It should be based entirely on how it 'balances' against the other pros and cons of that weapon, and in comparison to other weapons.

The thing you want to avoid (which is rarely possible, unless you take the Dungeon World approach) is players choosing weapons for their stats. You want people to be able to choose weapons because they think they are cool, without fear that they are gimping their character mechanically.
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: Toward a Theory of Weapon Stats

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:45 am

Glorelendil wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:40 am
Otaku-sempai wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:46 pm
Comparing a knitting needle to a sword of any class is not remotely like comparing a sling to a bow
Sure it is. In both cases we are saying that weapon A can do as much damage as weapon B.
You are joking, right? For the sake of rational discussion, I certainly hope so. Knitting needles are not designed or intended to be used as weapons. You might as well be writing about sharpened pencils, butter knives or dinner forks.
The thing you want to avoid (which is rarely possible, unless you take the Dungeon World approach) is players choosing weapons for their stats. You want people to be able to choose weapons because they think they are cool, without fear that they are gimping their character mechanically.
Yes, I understand your point and agree to some extent. But that doesn't mean that all weapons should be treated as equal in all circumstances. Not that you would state that (I think). But as ranged weapons originally developed for hunting, it is valid to compare the sling and the bow and discuss their similarities and differences. In this instance, though, it is probably more useful to see how they can each be developed according to a particular theory of weapon stats without being made identical to each other. Which, of course, has already been examined in previous posts.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Glorelendil
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Re: Toward a Theory of Weapon Stats

Post by Glorelendil » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:00 am

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:45 am
Glorelendil wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:40 am
Otaku-sempai wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:46 pm
Comparing a knitting needle to a sword of any class is not remotely like comparing a sling to a bow
Sure it is. In both cases we are saying that weapon A can do as much damage as weapon B.
You are joking, right? For the sake of rational discussion, I certainly hope so. Knitting needles are not designed or intended to be used as weapons. You might as well be writing about sharpened pencils, butter knives or dinner forks.
No, I'm not joking at all. But I don't think you were understanding my point at all, either.

I don't actually think a knitting needle should have the same stats as a longsword. I was trying to illustrate that the claim "weapon A can do as much damage as weapon B" is a really bad reason to treat A & B identically, because you can insert pretty much any weapon (or object) into slot A, and any other weapon/object into slot B, and the sentence is still true. Which I demonstrated by using an extreme example.

So, sure, a sling bullet can do a whole lot of damage. But I'd much rather be shot at by a slinger than by an archer, assuming equal competency. And I bet you would, too.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: Toward a Theory of Weapon Stats

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:26 am

Glorelendil wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:00 am
No, I'm not joking at all. But I don't think you were understanding my point at all, either.

I don't actually think a knitting needle should have the same stats as a longsword. I was trying to illustrate that the claim "weapon A can do as much damage as weapon B" is a really bad reason to treat A & B identically, because you can insert pretty much any weapon (or object) into slot A, and any other weapon/object into slot B, and the sentence is still true. Which I demonstrated by using an extreme example.
Okay. That just struck me as such an absurdly extreme example as to be effectively worthless for discussion. Though I do seem to remember someone mentioning--here or in another thread--using a system where all weapons do the same damage (which to me seems too abstract to be at all interesting).
So, sure, a sling bullet can do a whole lot of damage. But I'd much rather be shot at by a slinger than by an archer, assuming equal competency. And I bet you would, too.
Well, a sling bullet is more likely to crack my skull than pierce my heart, but I'm not as confident as you are about it being less likely to find its mark. And either the shot or an arrow would likely be able to destroy a kidney just as easily. I'd rather avoid being the target of either one if it's all the same to you.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Dunkelbrink
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Re: Toward a Theory of Weapon Stats

Post by Dunkelbrink » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:17 am

Interesting discussion (?). I agree with you, Glorelendil, in that realism is not an important factor in an rpg. But I find some of tour arguments lacking this time (witty though). You claim that weapons "should be chosen because they are cool, woithout fear that they are gimping their character mechanically". I agree with that. But that would suggest equal stats for the weapons - like the trusty "hand weapon" i WFRP - where the choice between axe and sword was a cosmetic one, based on coolness and character concept. So based on this the sling and bow should have equal stats in TOR - the choice between them should be based on coolness.

As soon as you introduce different stats it becomes a choice of mechanics. Choose the lighter weapon, the weapon with higher injury etc. I Think that TOR is almost perfect here, every weapon has its pros and cons. Based on this I would prefer the sling being a ranged weapon in the same span as the dagger - lower damage, lower Enc (and lower cost if this was a game that considered that factor), adding to variety but maybe sacrificing realism.

Your last argument, that you would rather be shot at by a slinger than a Bowman, is strange, because now you use the argument of realism and the estimated damage of the shot - just the argument you dismissed a few pages back.

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