Staves

The unique One Ring rules set invites tinkering and secondary creation. Whilst The One Ring works brilliantly as written, we provide this forum for those who want to make their own home-brewed versions of the rules. Note that none of these should be taken as 'official'.
Otaku-sempai
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Re: Staves

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:24 pm

Falenthal wrote:Just for variety, this is how my version of Quarterstaff looks like using Glorelendil's weapon creator kit.
Beware that I want to use the Quarterstaff as a variant/option of Dagger, so that I don't have a problem with it having a surplus of points like the Dagger does:

Quarterstaff
Damage: 5
Edge: G
Injury: 14
Encumbrance: 0
Group: Dagger (a.k.a. Simple Weapons)
Called Shot: Disarm
Notes: Two-handed Melee. Usable by Hobbits. A succesful Wound is substituted by Knockdown.

I can't do a proper numerical evaluation, but I guess/believe that adding a Called Shot (which a Dagger has not) might compensate the fact that this is weapon that cannot Wound an opponent (which a Dagger can).
I do feel that a Damage of 5 is too low for the Quarterstaff; even if you think that 7 is too high, you might consider compromising and making it 6. But Encumbrance of 0 should be right out; it shouldn't be less than 2 and I could argue that it could be 3 based on its size (a Longsword has an Encumbrance of 3 and a Quarterstaff would certainly be larger than a Longsword--but then so is a Spear). The Encumbrance of the Quarterstaff should definitely not be less than that of the Spear.

Also, Knockdown is a called shot effect. If you have Disarm for the called shot then Knockdown should not be listed at all (unless it is as a possible substitute for Disarm).
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

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Re: Staves

Post by Glorelendil » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:34 pm

I rather like Falenthal's solution for Knockdown. My issue with it being a Called Shot effect is that it's too easy to lock down a powerful adversary. (Even if you use the "doesn't work on Great Size" house rule, you could still in theory kill somebody like Glorfindel by simply knocking him down every round.)

But replacing Wounds with Knockdown is kinda cool. It sort of makes sense for a blunt piece of wood, and the hero can't control when it happens.

The only flaw is that somehow the more armor you wear, the less likely it is that you'll get knocked down, which seems odd. I suppose if you think of it as "Trip" you could argue that more armor means less agility.
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Re: Staves

Post by Falenthal » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:48 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote: I do feel that a Damage of 5 is too low for the Quarterstaff; even if you think that 7 is too high, you might consider compromising and making it 6.
My first version had a Damage of 3, and only changed it to 5 because Glor's formula "told me" I should rise some stats to parallel this weapon with a Dagger. :D
No, my idea is still that a Quarterstaff shouldn't be on pair with other weapons regarding their ability to kill creatures. To me it's more a walking stick transformed into a weapon in dire need, than a weapon selected to kill monster. Unless we introduce some shao-lin kung-fu masters from East Rhûn in Wilderland... ;)
Otaku-sempai wrote: But Encumbrance of 0 should be right out; it shouldn't be less than 2 and I could argue that it could be 3 based on its size (a Longsword has an Encumbrance of 3 and a Quarterstaff would certainly be larger than a Longsword--but then so is a Spear). The Encumbrance of the Quarterstaff should definitely not be less than that of the Spear.
Here you may have a point. I was only thinking of the Encumbrance regarding how cumbersome it would be to travel with a walking stick/quarterstaff. That lead me to fix it at 0, such a tool would even help in your wanderings, not hinder you. But I didn't think that using it as a weapon (it would be listed under War Gear, after all) is as tiresome as using other arms, and that should be contemplated in the Encumbrance rating. But due to the issue with travelling I mentioned, I'd leave it an Encumbrance of 2. On the other hand, Daggers are probably more tiring to use in combat than other weapons, because of their lower range, and they still have an Encumbrance of 0. I don't know about this, still.
Otaku-sempai wrote: Also, Knockdown is a called shot effect. If you have Disarm for the called shot then Knockdown should not be listed at all (unless it is as a possible substitute for Disarm).
I know Knockdown comes from the effect of some adversaries weapons, but -again- I see a simple quarterstaff as a non-lethal weapon. I'm also aware that this is against some evidence you and others have brought to light in related threads, but that's the weapon I want in my game. Therefore, I'm using that effect instead of a Wound. It's a house-rule, after all. ;)
By the way, I forgot to add in the description that Knock-down doesn't work against Giant Sized adversaries. Editing it now.
This change from "Wound" to "Knock-down with limitations" is another way to tune down the weapon, making it a bit more balanced (in stats terms) having a low Encumbrance.

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Re: Staves

Post by Glorelendil » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:00 pm

Bear in mind that mechanically Encumbrance is as much about how tiring it is to carry something around for weeks on end as it is about how tiring it is to use in combat. As Rocmistro pointed out, even the necessary upkeep of a weapon could be factored into Encumbrance. (I.e., if you have to stay up at night keeping rust off your sword you are less well rested.)

But...really...Encumbrance is another mechanic in the system designed to create trade-offs and make for hard choices, not model reality. The order of operations is:
1) Pick the number that balances the system
2) Create fluff to justify that number

And I'm with Falenthal on the lethality of a quarterstaff: in Middle-Earth I expect it is primarily a walking stick (or possibly a conduit for divine power from Aman, in some cases) and only secondarily something with which to smite orcs.

(As for the Knockdown: if it's a Wound effect instead of a Called Shot I don't think you need the exclusion for Giant Sized, because those creatures also tend to have a lot of Armor. They will almost never fail the Protection test anyway, and on those rare events they do it's an opportunity for some great narration.)
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Re: Staves

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:16 pm

Keep in mind that a Quarterstaff is a stout staff of hardwood and is often shod in iron. It can be quite lethal and can easily smash a skull or break bones and it has the force that goes along with being wielded in two hands. A damage of 5 is very conservative; I figure it for 7, assigning 5 for the Short stave used by the Bounders of the Shire.

I also erred on the side of caution in assigning the Edge (G) and Injury (14) ratings as I did. The Edge, at least, probably should be 10. My Encumbrance rating of 3 takes into account that a Quarterstaff can, theoretically, be much longer than six feet and even over eight feet long (I've seen has long as nine feet cited). It's a great simple weapon out in the open, but difficult to impossible to use in confined spaces--another factor in my Encumbrance rating.
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Re: Staves

Post by Glorelendil » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:35 pm

A dagger is a length of sharpened and polished steel. It can easily pierce a heart or slice a major artery. In the hands of an expert it is a lethal weapon.

And yet, in TOR...it is not.
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Re: Staves

Post by Falenthal » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:37 pm

Otaku, I think we're starting from two different ideas:
You know quarterstaves as real weapons, and want to replicate them in TOR terms.
I have a concept of a weapon I want in my game and am giving it the form of a quarterstaff.

I want something that makes the Dagger skill a bit more useful or, at least, full of flavour for peaceful walking hobbits. Maybe my stats are what you would call a cane, not a quarterstaff :) .

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Re: Staves

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:46 pm

I'll admit that I don't want to set the reality of the weapon (Quarterstaff) entirely aside. I'm also looking at it from the point of view of a weapon that might be wielded by an opponent rather than a Hero. It should provide some challenge.

What you want might be closer to the shorter stave that I developed for the Bounders (there's no reason to limit it to Hobbits; I could easily imagine it used by a Dwarf or a Mannish farmer wandering home from the local inn.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

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Re: Staves

Post by Falenthal » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:49 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote: What you want might be closer to the shorter stave that I developed for the Bounders (there's no reason to limit it to Hobbits; I could easily imagine it used by a Dwarf or a Mannish farmer wandering home from the local inn.
Yeah, those stats are closer to my liking.

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Re: Staves

Post by Otaku-sempai » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:10 am

I edited the original entry to include Staves as a weapon group and expand on them a bit.

Weapon Group (Staves)
- Stick-fighting Staves
- Shepherd's Crook
- Short Stave
- Quarterstaff
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

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