Deadly Archery

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Glorelendil
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Re: Deadly Archery

Post by Glorelendil » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:01 pm

Angelalex242 wrote:Nuts. Nobody likes 'archery from any stance?' I thought it'd be a good answer. Prevent Mirkwood and Lorien elves from having to buy up a melee skill.
It was suggested a few pages upstream by Corvo.

My take: too PJ.
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Angelalex242
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Re: Deadly Archery

Post by Angelalex242 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:11 pm

Ah. That was during my downtime. Didn't see Corvo's stuff. Ignoring PJ, though, would it be mechanically balanced?

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Re: Deadly Archery

Post by Deadmanwalking » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:00 pm

Angelalex242 wrote:Ah. That was during my downtime. Didn't see Corvo's stuff. Ignoring PJ, though, would it be mechanically balanced?
Horseback Archery already allows it in Forward and Open, so probably, yeah.

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Re: Deadly Archery

Post by Angelalex242 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:10 pm

Horseback Archery does have the downside of 'must be on a horse.' Can't take that into a dungeon or an enemy fortress or whatever.

Deadly Archery would work anywhere and doesn't require an equine friend.

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Re: Deadly Archery

Post by Glorelendil » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:56 pm

Can Horseback Archery be used on floating barrels?
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Falenthal
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Re: Deadly Archery

Post by Falenthal » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:01 pm

Angelalex242 wrote:Nuts. Nobody likes 'archery from any stance?' I thought it'd be a good answer. Prevent Mirkwood and Lorien elves from having to buy up a melee skill.
While it might work mechanically, I don't see it as thematic. Or as a Virtue that would add flavour to the archer.
In my mind, Tolkien's elves don't go shooting arrows in the middle of a melee.
But, if it fits what you'd like to achieve with Deadly Archery, then I'd say it won't break your game. It can also be fun. A Mirkwood Elf with a Bow won't be able to carry a shield in melee, but their high Wits can support that (a Barding with a Shield is equal or worse in Parry than a ME).

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Re: Deadly Archery

Post by Falenthal » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:10 pm

Glorelendil wrote: If you're going to buff something, buff Prepared Shot, such that in some situations it's better. Ideally "some situations" is hard to quantify, so the players have to make educated guesses.

More (hard) choices == better game.
Good points.

I stick with this one, as I also see that Prepared Shot is, thematically, in line with how I see elven archers: better at aiming with precision due to their keen senses and years of practice. That's why I went with Called Shots in the first place.
But you're right about your concerns of that eliminating choices for the players, instead of broadening them.

For now, I don't have any idea more interesting than a dull:
"When doing the Combat Task Prepare Shot, your next attack gets -X TN to hit".

Similar, in a way, to the RAW Deadly Archery (pay a cost to get your TN to hit reduced), but more usable than the Hope price. But dull.

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Re: Deadly Archery

Post by Falenthal » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:23 pm

Insect King wrote: Why don't you use Mastery Die?

Cheers,

Chris.
Because I think it's an unneeded new rule, that adds a layer more of complexity that could be solved in other ways, without having to come up with a new mechanic to remember.

Personally, I've just boosted some of the general Virtues that were never picked up: instead of increasing your melee damage by only 1 point, I increase it by 3 points (an Extraordinary Success does 6 more Endurance points than usual). And so on. Those Virtues are now interesting to pick.

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Re: Deadly Archery

Post by Glorelendil » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:26 am

Thinking more about archery in all stances:

1) Agree with above that, PJ aside, it's just not thematic. Middle-Earth is a world where the "fantastic" is subtle and rare, and I find the idea of an archer being fully effective in the middle of a melee...implausible. I might change my mind if anybody could produce a quote that supports it. And preferably not merely something that indicate its presence in unique circumstances (like using Sam picking up Sting as justification for dual-wielding).

2) Horse Archery works (in my mind) because it's plausible: being up on a well-trained horse gives you protection and mobility to make it less fantastic. Furthermore, like Woodcrafty or Durin's Folk, it applies in a specific circumstance which will tend to be the exception not the rule. So the extent to which it's "unbalancing" it's also limited.

3) Furthermore (and circling back to point #1) by limiting it to circumstances that are to some extent controlled by players, it has an impact on decision-making that is thematic for the hero: the Dwarf will prefer to fight Orcs over others, the Woodman will prefer to fight among trees, and the Rider will try to confront his enemies from horseback. I don't think allowing MElves to use any stance creates an incentive for them to face enemies in a particularly thematic way.

All that said, this has me thinking about archery in general, about which I will post in another thread...
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Re: Deadly Archery

Post by zedturtle » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:26 am

Glorelendil wrote:3) Furthermore (and circling back to point #1) by limiting it to circumstances that are to some extent controlled by players, it has an impact on decision-making that is thematic for the hero: the Dwarf will prefer to fight Orcs over others, the Woodman will prefer to fight among trees, and the Rider will try to confront his enemies from horseback. I don't think allowing MElves to use any stance creates an incentive for them to face enemies in a particularly thematic way.
There's a few examples that are borderline that I can think of, from Unfinished Tales.

BUT....

If the idea appeals, and you want to reward Elves of Mirkwood for being Wood-elfy, then why not specify that those possessed of the Deadly Archery virtue can fire bows (not great bows, just bows) from any stance whilst in the woods? It's relatively easy to fluff, as the Elf can use every tree to her advantage, in order to be able to shoot at closer range than anyone else.
Jacob Rodgers, occasional nitwit.

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