WFRP and D&D

All the Cubicle 7 news
CapnZapp
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:13 pm

WFRP and D&D

Post by CapnZapp » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:24 pm

(I really hope Dominic McDowall reads this before finalizing the design of his new game :) )

Fun fact: WFRP2 came out in 2004, just when Dungeons & Dragons had had its explosively successful 3rd edition boom (released in 2000).

The combat system is plainly inspired by D&D3, mainly by splitting the "full action" in two "half actions", and how you needed to take a full action and not move in order to utilize all your Attacks if you have more than one.

This is exactly how D&D3 works, where a "standard action" allows only one attack while the "full-round action attack" allows all your attacks (which, for a Fighter could be up to five) and also not move (more than a 5 ft step).

Why am I telling you this? Because WFRP4 would do well in drawing inspiration from its contemporary D&D edition. WFRP4 will come out in 2018, which is four years after D&D 5th edition - just like WFRP2 came out four years after D&D3!

Specifically, throw away that "full action" vestige of the d20 system! And instead allow you to move freely before, during and after your attack or attacks! Moving in combat is fun and exciting! It should be rewarded, not come at a cost!

Other massive improvement brought to the mainstream include replacing all the fiddly +1 and +2 bonuses (+5% and +10% in WFRP parlance) by one single unified mechanism: Advantage.

You either have advantage or you don't. (Goodbye +1 from this, +2 from that and another +1 from Uncle Bob!)

Advantage means you roll twice and take the best result. This means that the benefit of advantage lessens the better you are (just by pure statistical properties, no calculation needed!). In other words: it's a bonus that is big when you have a 50% risk of failing (and need the bonus). But the bonus is much smaller when you only have a 5% of risk of failing (and thus don't really need it).

In other words, it comes with built-in power balancing. If you're a minmaxer and you already have a great score, you gain comparatively less from advantage than a newb who didn't manage to create such a good score.

Doing away with static combats is my #1 wish for 4E.

Simplifying away all the +10%s and -10%s is my #2 wish for 4E.

Corvo
Posts: 846
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: WFRP and D&D

Post by Corvo » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:19 am

I agree wholeheartedly with CapnZapp.

I could add something to the list: do away with the calculation of the "degree of success". It's the "you made the roll by 30, your opponent by 28, so you win the opposed roll..."
Please, use Pendragon's opposed rolls system.
Pendragon showed the way more than 30 years ago: the fact that most games are still calculating degree of success through subtractions is just design inertia.

Edit: just to be clear, in Pendragon the degree of success is just the number you rolled, if it's inside your skill.
If your skill is 16 and you roll 12, then your degree of success is 12.
If your opponent with skill 14 rolls 7, then your 12 wins against the 7.
It's called "blackjack" system.
No need to calculate any difference.

Marchiavel
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:02 pm
Location: Nantes, FR

Re: WFRP and D&D

Post by Marchiavel » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:32 pm

Much more : don't throw your D10 for damage.

Just take the decade number, add it to the damage of your weapon, don't use the TB : that will be pretty the same damages, but with only one roll.

User avatar
King Eirik
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:59 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: WFRP and D&D

Post by King Eirik » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:29 am

Hopefully we don't see too much from 5th Edition. Play it now and it's lame.
And I don't want to play a 5th Ed. clone on Old Wolrd ;)
But a do away with the calculation of successes would be great. It's not sooo difficult but in my experience it cost time and therefore distract from the play itself. And there are some player who miscalculate very often...
The King is dead! Long live the King!

No:12
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:35 pm

Re: WFRP and D&D

Post by No:12 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:21 am

I'd happily have a one roll system to determine success, then possibly extra hits with degrees of success (Black Crusade ish). Have dodge/parry/defensive action options give negative modifications to the hit roll, rather than a long series of exchanged rolls like in 2nd.

Would prefer to keep a dice roll for damage, but that's just cause I've always enjoyed the exploding damage threat. A taste thing I guess.

Totally unlikely, but on a wish list I'd also like low wounds/hit points, more frequent low level critical hits, and armour to be heavy, tiring, but more effective than TB so still a very much desired selection of kit. As I said, kind of unlikely...

User avatar
EvilSpaceOrc
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:10 pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: WFRP and D&D

Post by EvilSpaceOrc » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:18 pm

I don't like the suggestions from the OP.

Movement: In a game like DnD when characters are super heroic and easily overpower anything that's not a dragon moving a lot fits the system and the fantasy. In Warhammer combat should involve making more careful decisions, and deciding on movement or staying engaged in combat fits it better. You are not supposed to stab one goblin in the face, jump across the field and happily decapitate another.

Advantage and disadvantage are cool ideas, but situational as it changes probability of success drastically when the test actually matters. WH is based on a simple % system, any advantages/disadvantages are already incorporated into it by adjusting difficulty by 10% increments, and I don't see a single addition or subtraction to be fiddly or difficult.

You will probably get this type of rules in Age of Sigmar RPG, which is meant to be a superheroic version of the system. I imagine that's the reason they make 2 completely separate releases, and to be honest everyone wins - I'll get my long awaited 4E, you'll get your simplified game. I played 5E past couple months, I'm sick of it and don't want to see any of it in WH 4E.

User avatar
Grey Seer
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:19 am

Re: WFRP and D&D

Post by Grey Seer » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:50 pm

Certainly would love a system like TOR or FFG Star Wars which allows for multiple axis of success, but at this point, I expect that the core mechanics were locked down months and months ago. I'm sure whatever C7 comes up with, it will be awesome.
-Greyh

CRKrueger
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:09 pm

Re: WFRP and D&D

Post by CRKrueger » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:46 am

Grey Seer wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:50 pm
Certainly would love a system like TOR or FFG Star Wars which allows for multiple axis of success, but at this point, I expect that the core mechanics were locked down months and months ago. I'm sure whatever C7 comes up with, it will be awesome.
If you want FFG Star Wars Warhammer just go buy 3rd Edition. That was the first iteration of that system.

User avatar
Grey Seer
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:19 am

Re: WFRP and D&D

Post by Grey Seer » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:18 am

CRKrueger wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:46 am
If you want FFG Star Wars Warhammer just go buy 3rd Edition. That was the first iteration of that system.
This is true, but WFRP 3rd had some core issues (massive amounts of "bits" needed in order to play and the narrative dice system (Genesys) still had many kinks KS to work out before it became great).
-Greyh

User avatar
EvilSpaceOrc
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:10 pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: WFRP and D&D

Post by EvilSpaceOrc » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:54 am

That's going a bit offtopic maybe, but in regards to FFG narrative system:

My understanding is that in addition to failure and success you can independently get an advantages or disadvantages. GM can always rule that failure by less than 10% still gives you some situational advantage, and there always were degrees of success in WFRP, based on each extra 10% increment you beat the test with.

TBH I haven't tried FFG Star Wars, I was always worried that it would get very tiresome to try and come up with new circumstances arising after nearly each test, when sometimes I just want a simple pass or fail.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests